[open] EO/MJ chit-chat

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We are the Universal Church the one Apostolic, Catholic, Orthodox Church. What has diviated from us and continuing to live in heresy is "cut off".

John 15

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
 
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visionary

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Your question is loaded but I will take a stab at it.

Christ gave very specific instructions about this. The Eucharist is the ultimate sacrament but like other sacraments they are a means by which God grants us grace. Just as Christ used physical means to heal the blind man - he can also use other physical means to impart grace to us.

As far as "it is required" I can not say. I will make no judgment calls as to "this is required" or "this is optional". That is not Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy takes the faith as delivered and does not alter it. While I will not say that it is required (thief on the cross) I will tell you that I am not about to try to impose my own imperfect personal wants on such a topic.



This is not all that great of a statement. Again - it is a source of grace. Christ gave very specific instructions on this.


The consequences of partaking of the body and blood of Christ unworthily are clear:


If you do not discern the body then you eat your own damnation. How much more clear would one need it? You want us to allow just anyone to come up and receive? They could be completely unaware of what is going on - they could openly deny the mystery and therefore *actively refuse* to discern the body.



Here we disagree totally. The Church is the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that has preserved the faith since Pentecost. There are no divisions in the body of Christ. HE is the vine and the Church is his body.

Those that are not KNOWN to be within the Church *and prepared* are excluded for their own protection as much as anything.

So as a guest in your church, will I be allowed to participate as a believer?
 
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Mary of Bethany

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So as a guest in your church, will I be allowed to participate as a believer?

Only Orthodox Christians who have prepared themselves with prayer, fasting, and recent confession may receive the Holy Mysteries. Everything else, you may participate in. :)

Mary
 
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So as a guest in your church, will I be allowed to participate as a believer?
Who knows what you might believe? You claim to be a believer but we do not know what it is that you hold to be true. No you would not be able to participate. Only those who are:

a) Baptised
b) Chrismated
c) Prepared through ascesis

are allowed to participate.

Again - How does the priest know that you hold the correct faith? If you have separated yourself from the Church then that itself is a giant glaring sign that you hold heterodox beliefs. Why would you want him to potentially feed you (or someone else) your own damnation?

Let us take this example:

A woman considers herself to be a "pagan/christian". She thinks that Jesus never really an actual person but really more of a philosophical avatar. She practices witchcraft, smokes grass and has a live in boyfriend that is a wiccan priest. Each night she burns sage before a statue of Buddha and says a prayer to the Earth Mother. She walks into a Chruch and says "Hey, I am a believer". Should she partake?

Remember this:
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation unto himself, not discerning the Lord's body" (1 Cor. 11:27-29)

This woman considers herself to be a believer. Should she participate?
 
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Since general consensus is that I can not particpate in the breading of bread and drinking of wine at your house, then I will just have to invite you all over to ours where we will freely share what we have.
I appreciate the gesture but no thanks. If I were to eat of that bread and drink of that cup I would be separating myself from Orthodoxy. It is not a symbolic or trivial thing for us.
 
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visionary

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I appreciate the gesture but no thanks. If I were to eat of that bread and drink of that cup I would be separating myself from Orthodoxy. It is not a symbolic or trivial thing for us.
It is not a symbolic trival thing for us either. I do understand the seriousness of my gesture and like Paul will not stop you from participating because I weren't check to see if you are circumcised in the heart or not. We are of the faith, that this is a matter between you and God and not for us to look for outward rituals to the right to observe.
 
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Monica child of God 1

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Binding yourself to God was not a merely a personal matter in the OT and it isn't in the NT either. Biblical faith is communal. Yes it is personal and sometimes even private but it is profoundly communal. The OT people of God were a nation. The NT people of God are arranged in a Body, a Church. One must be a member not only inwardly but outwardly as well by confession of faith in baptism, chrismation and communion.

And it would be utterly cruel for us to allow people to partake of the Eucharist without understanding what they are about to do. How is it loving do nothing as people "eat and drink judgment" on themselves? Remember that partaking in an unworthy manner may cause illness or even death.

M.
 
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buzuxi02

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Both Orthodox christianity and Orthodox judaism are acapella in their hymns.

Both Orthodoxy and judaism have the betrothal and marriage ceremonies combined into one.

Both have prayers for the dead.

St James the Lord's brother, a devout jew was the first bishop of the Jerusalem Patriarchate and that church is the 'MOTHER OF ALL THE CHURCHES"

some of what i wrote is what judaism and Orthodoxy have in common not neccesarily messianic judaism
 
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Henaynei

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Hello again.

Before Paul was converted by Christ, he was a violent persecutor of Christians
point of clarification :) not Christians but, as scripture put it Jews that believe. No one was called a Christian until the believing gentiles were in Antioch. Never once in scripture is a believing Jewish person called a Christian. Rather they are "followers of the Way," or "Jew that believe." Only believing gentiles were called "Christanos." [sp?? I'm *sure* your Greek is better than mine ;)]

and persecuted the church of G-d because of his zealous loyalty to the Jewish traditions. The crux of Paul's conversion to Christianity (He became Apostle)
another point.... becoming an Apostle did not make one a Christian. ALL the Apostles were Jews and as I have shown in a previous post, also kept Torah. Sha'ul himself proclaimed at the end of his life that he had been zealous for the Torah all his life and had never transgressed the traditions as well :)

Acts 25
7 When he arrived, the Judeans who had come down from Yerushalayim stood around him, bringing many serious charges against him which they could not prove. 8 In reply, Sha'ul said, "I have committed no offense - not against the Torah to which the Jews hold, not against the Temple, and not against the Emperor."

Here is what the Jewish leaders thought(vs a group known as the Judeans and which later writers translated "the Jews", but as you can clearly see in this passage they did not represent anyone but themselves... and again Sha'ul claiming he still kept the Torah/Law...

Acts 28
17 After three days Sha'ul called a meeting of the local Jewish leaders. When they had gathered, he said to them: "Brothers, although I have done nothing against either our people or the traditions of our fathers, I was made a prisoner in Yerushalayim and handed over to the Romans. 18 They [the Jewish leaders] examined me and were ready to release me, because I had done nothing to justify a death sentence. 19 But when the Judeans objected, I was forced to appeal to the Emperor - not that I had any charge to make against my own people. 20 This is why I have asked to see you and speak with you, for it is because of the hope of Isra'el that I have this chain around me." 21 They said to him, "We have not received any letters about you from Y'hudah, and none of the brothers who have come from there has reported or said anything bad about you. 22 But we do think it would be appropriate to hear your views from you, yourself; for all we know about this sect is that people everywhere speak against it."

is that he once was an enemy of Christ and Christ intervened and converted him.
most definitely Messiah intervened - but I do not agree that Sha'ul converted. There was nothing for him to convert to.... He was Jewish and Yeshua turned him back (called t'shuvh [literally "to return" or "turn back toward"], or repentance in English) toward G-d and full truth.



He became a chosen instrument of G-d to explain the Law in light of grace.
we agree there!

G-d foreknew that Paul's expertise in the Jewish traditions would inspire Paul to produce 14 epistles of the New Testament. He became a Christian but with expertise in the Jewish tradition.
nah, :) he became a Torah observant Jew who believed and taught the truth about Messiah, the Jewish Messiah, who had also opened the way to a salvific relationship with the G-d of the Universe to all who would also believe :) :thumbsup:



I agree. I speak of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Abram is no longer Abram but Abraham.

G-d changed his name to Abraham.

Isaac was a figure and shadow of the Sacrificial Lamb (Jesus) who was crucified.
this is handy and is taught in many denominations ... a name change is a niffty and significant thing but not everyone who returned to G-d had their name changed, in fact only a few did. Sha'ul, like many Jews of that day and most today, had two names. His Jewish name and his gentile name. He had always been Paul to the gentiles he knew and Sha'ul to the Jews he knew.

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the revelations and prediction of the Prophets.
again we agree :)

The crux of this is that Christians are under a new and better covenant, which is the blood of Jesus Christ.

He is our (Christians) only Mediator and High Priest.
a new covenant does not eliminate the previous one. In fact the only reason the new one has any standing is in direct correlation to it's connection to and support of the previous one. Covenants were not ever discarded, amended, added to, but never discarded. Especially when the G-d of the Universe said it would stand for ever ;)

Faith in the Blood of Messiah is what the sacrificial system is all about. Both before Yeshua laid down His life and afterward :D It has always been this Faith that saved, never the blood of animals. Obedience to the commands of G-d has always been the fruit/evidence of that Faith. Just as it is today :)

b'Shalolm
Henaynei

sorry I could not get to more posts, but I have yet to get to bed and have to be up in 2 hours ...
 
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It is not a symbolic trival thing for us either. I do understand the seriousness of my gesture and like Paul will not stop you from participating because I weren't check to see if you are circumcised in the heart or not. We are of the faith, that this is a matter between you and God and not for us to look for outward rituals to the right to observe.
visionary - our "pagan / christian" lady friend - will you also invite her to participate?
 
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Z

zhilan

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visionary,

I'm not too familiar with this, so I may be wrong, but in Judaism, only certain people are allowed to touch the Torah, right? If I walk into an Orthodox Jewish synagogue, and walk up and touch the Torah, that would not be taken well, correct? I am a woman, I could be on my period, I'm not Jewish. Are the Jews doing that to be "mean" and exclude me or is it for my own good and to protect something sacred?

Another question, I remember seeing a video linked from the MJ forum of MJ worship in Israel. They didn't have any of the traditional Jewish vestments and were just dressed in normal daily clothes. They were also jumping and dancing to loud modern Christian music - the ceremony seemed much more like an American pentecostal or evangelical service than a traditional Jewish service. However the impression I've gotten here and from some other places is that the services are liturgical and like traditional Jewish services - do you know which is more common. Are there different types of MJ services? Thanks!
 
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MariaRegina

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Binding yourself to God was not a merely a personal matter in the OT and it isn't in the NT either. Biblical faith is communal. Yes it is personal and sometimes even private but it is profoundly communal. The OT people of God were a nation. The NT people of God are arranged in a Body, a Church. One must be a member not only inwardly but outwardly as well by confession of faith in baptism, chrismation and communion.

And it would be utterly cruel for us to allow people to partake of the Eucharist without understanding what they are about to do. How is it loving do nothing as people "eat and drink judgment" on themselves? Remember that partaking in an unworthy manner may cause illness or even death.

M.

So true!

A lot of people don't believe in miracles; however, in the Orthodox Church miracles abound.

A few years ago, in Santa Barbara, California, a Roman Catholic lady visited an Orthodox Church and decided to partake of Holy Communion even though the Priest had made an announcement that only those baptized and chrismated Orthodox Christians who if they were married, had been married in the Church, who had recently been to Holy Confession, and who had observed the pre-communion fast and Fast Days of the Church, should dare approach the Chalice.

Anyway, she still dared to approach carefully watching what others did so as to blend in and not be detected. Her ruse was flawless and the Priest held the spoon and pronounced, "The Servant of God" . . . and as she started to pronounce her name, suddenly a ball of fire emerged from the Holy Chalice and flew toward her.

Her eyes opened wide and her mouth grimaced in a picture of horror. The Priest noticed her change in appearance from one of faith to one of total panic, and asked her if she were Orthodox. She confessed that she was a Catholic. He gently told her to kiss the Holy Chalice which she did with Holy Fear then he said he would like to speak with her after the Divine Liturgy. She did so, and within six months she was chrismated and received Holy Communion as a true Orthodox Believer.
 
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