• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

[open] Acts 15 - Is it necessary to keep the law of Moses?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Shimshon, May 16, 2006.

  1. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    Hi all, I have been buzy with Mom and just got a chance to read this thread....I am confused too and I think I tried in the past to testify to Shimshon's life as I see it, and on how I see he walks in the Spirit , and so I will try to find that thread ......I'll post it again if I can find it...

    Shimshon, you clearly "sound" like a Christian who doesnt understand which just isnt true! I have seen you in action bro and you are very much "in the know" of all the Torah and Customs of your people (Jews/Messianic Jews I mean) I have seen your Prayer-shawl wrapped tightly around you and Mrs Shimmy in morning Shabbat service; clearly a picture of Yeshua covering his bride with his love and peace... and I felt the Spirit of ABBA resting on you both as we worshipped side by side...You look and act more Torah Observant than others I know.....I understand your message is "different" than we are use to hearing but the truth is if I were to walk down the street from your house and knock on your neighbors door and ask if they knew where the Shimshons live, more than likely if they knew you they would describe you as a Torah Observant Messianic Rabbi (OK maybe not Rabbi but well ....maybe they would , who knows) I have witnessed you in action and you are not just a christian who has no clue about God's Torah whatever that is...you are a Walking Torah Scroll in my opinion....I think the problem is you are having trouble communicating your ideas to us, that's all....

    For what it is worth.....:hug:

    PS this is the post I was looking for

  2. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

    Matthew Henry's Commentary

    Galatians 3:19-22
    If that promise was enough for salvation, wherefore then serveth the law? The Israelites, though chosen to be God's peculiar people, were sinners as well as others. The law was not intended to discover a way of justification, different from that made known by the promise, but to lead men to see their need of the promise, by showing the sinfulness of sin, and to point to Christ, through whom alone they could be pardoned and justified. The promise was given by God himself; the law was given by the ministry of angels, and the hand of a mediator, even Moses. Hence the law could not be designed to set aside the promise. A mediator, as the very term signifies, is a friend that comes between two parties, and is not to act merely with and for one of them. The great design of the law was, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ, might be given to those that believe; that, being convinced of their guilt, and the insufficiency of the law to effect a righteousness for them, they might be persuaded to believe on Christ, and so obtain the benefit of the promise. And it is not possible that the holy, just, and good law of God, the standard of duty to all, should be contrary to the gospel of Christ. It tends every way to promote it.
  3. Henaynei

    Henaynei Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

    United States
  4. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    Acts 15 was simple enough for the Apostles when it came to what they noted was required of the Gentiles was to be different from that of the Jews. As it stands, trying to rely upon observance of the Mosaic Code was never able to result in anything short of condemnation---as even Peter acknowledged when it came to the yoke they bore. Moreover, it seems that the council realized that to try going back to the Law as a means of salvation went directly counter to what the Heart of Christ was about.

    On the issue of how the Law itself can point to Christ and yet can never be the vehicle to getting to Christ, I'm reminded of the sacrifice that the Lord gave of himself. For something that has intrigued me is that the sacrificial death of Yeshua in our place was not a Levitical sacrifice. For there were no Levitical sacrifices that would do what His did or used a human being. Of course, His sacrifice was a sacrifice far above any other, for God Himself died in place of His children. He made the rule that if a person disobeys, he must die. ..and He satisfied that penalty.

    There was no such command in the Mosaic Covenant and no Levitic sacrifice that would take such a ruling away. The Command was given in Paradise to man (Adam).....and thus, no man could ever meet it.

    For more clarity on what I'm trying to say, when realizing how the Levitical Priesthood itself seemed to be one that was meant to go on eternally without a perfect sacrifice arising in the system---and as such, it was why God needed to do things apart from its rules when he sacrificed Himself for us out of our His own freewill....

    Its clear repeatedly in scripture that when sin has occurred, something HAS to die. Animal skins for Adam/Eve seems to indicate that, as the skins must have come at the expense of an innocent animals life...and with the animals themselves, it seems God instituted the practice of animal sacrifice as a means of covering the sins of man for a time (Genesis 4:1-5, Genesis 8:19-21)---later making clear that He Himself called for His people to offer up sacrifices. God made repeatedly clear that He denounced the sacrifice of children/men as a means of atoning for others......as seen in his repeated threats of destruction on the nations of Israel/Judah when it came to their doing such.

    The only time anything close to a Human Sacrifice was made was seen in Genesis 22 when God called for Abraham to sacrifice Issac as a test of His faith/one of the greatest acts of Obediance in recorded History. It seems odd that God would ask Abraham to perform a human sacrifice since heathen naations practiced HUMAN sacrifice....but God condemned this as a terrible sin within the Levitical Law itself (Leviticus 20:1-5)---one where God said that worshipers of Molech ought to be stoned to death and the Lord promised that He himself would intervene directly by cutting them off. Does anyone here recall how the Pharisees in Jesus’ time knew the Law well enough to be shocked by His statement that He was the bread of life and anyone who does not eat His flesh and drink His blood has no part in Him.....as seen clearly when the Word declared, “Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" (John 6:52, John 6:35-66). The Jews did not grasp the symbolic meaning of what Christ said..but they clearly did not accept the idea of literally eating His flesh, which they would have accepted if the Law permitted cannibalism.

    But the Law Sharply condemned human sacrifices....

    There's not one of theses passages that even remotely referred to the act of cannibalism or human sacrifices as a matter of condoning. The Old Testament is quite clear on this matter as the ancient Hebrews were not to sacrifice, and thus eat, their young (2 Kings 16:2-3, Jer. 7:30-31, Jer. 32:35, Ps. 106:37-39)--and for other places, one can go to Leviticus 18:20-22, Leviticus 20:1-3, Leviticus 20:3-5, Deuteronomy 12:30-32, 2 Kings 17:16-18, 2 Chronicles 28:2-4 , 2 Chronicles 33:5-7 , Isaiah 57:4-6 , Jeremiah 32:34-36 , Ezekiel 16:19-21 , Ezekiel 20:30-32 , Ezekiel 23:36-38 and Ezekiel 23:38-40.

    It seems that God, in asking Abraham to kill Issac, did not want Issac to die. Rather, he wanted Abraham to sacrifice Issac in his heart so that it would be clear that Abraham loved God more than he loved his promised/long -awaited son. As seen in Genesis 22:13, there seems to be a parallel between the ram offered on the altar as a substitute for Issac and Christ offered on the Cross as a Substitute fro us. For God stopped Abraham from sacrificing His son IN Light of how he later made clear no amount of Human Sacrifice would ever be enough to appease Him and he ordained that only Animal sacrifices were sufficient to cover man's sins for the time---but with Christ, coming as Himself/God, He died out of His own freewill on the cross. If Jesus had lived, the rest of mankind would have died. But God sent His only son to die for us so that we could be spared from the eternal death we deserve and instead recieve eternal life (John 3:16).

    On the theme of parallel, its interesting to see the rationale behind why Abraham was even willing to kill Issac. The scriptures declare that Abraham was willing to Kill His own Son, although as the author of Hebrews observes in Hebrews 11:17-19, he prepared to do so believing that God was able to bring back Isaac back to life again. This is seen in Genesis 22:5-8 where He says to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you.". While Abraham is committed to sacrificing Issac, he plans to do so in the belief that both of them will return......and when He says to Isacc that God Himself will present the lamb, it is unclear whether Abraham is speaking ironically here (Isacc is the "lamb"), or whether he is expressing faith that somehow God will preserve his son. As it turns out thankfully (Genesis 22:13), God himself provides the lamb. This seems to parallel exactly with what Christ did with the Help of the Father----for knowing that no man on earth could ever fulfill God's righteous requirements, God Himself/came down and fulfilled His own standards......being the substitute that man could never hope to be while allowing the Law itself to remain in tact when it came to God saying He hated human sacrifices. His own offering freely of Himself accomplished it all..

    In many ways, its an issue of trajectory. The Levitical System was set up on the principle of animal sacrifices being sufficient to cover sins for a time---though by its nature, it could never ERASE sins....requiring a continual practice of sacrifices and men coming to do them, as well as having men come from the line of Levi to be qualified to do that. However, Christ came from an entirely differing system opposite of that...on a differing set of rules. Thus, He could die for us since he wasn't bound by the Levitical Laws saying sacrifices of men were forbidden----and thus redeem us, while a previous system would continue in a manner that made it of no more use. One could continue in it if they chose, but it was sub-standard by the time Christ came on the scene. It'd be like having an airplane from the 1920's/that being all one knew of to use for travel....despite its limitations....and then being presented with an airplane from the late 1990's in all of its advancement to go places the older plane was never designed to go or able....but rather than switch over to the newer model, one would choose to continue on in the older model as if it by itself was all God ever desired. It'd be sad, but one could not stop a person from doing so....and while the NEWER/ADVANCED model plane would be able to go in directions needed for the future, one would be stuck remaining in an older plane that simply can not go where the pilot may desire.

    Likewise, the Levitical priesthood may continue...but in many ways, it was rendered obselte and the PRIESTHOOD has ended due to how CHrist came with an entirely new one. There's no basis for demanding a temple anymore--as it makes clear Christ set it up in HEAVEN now rather than on the earth. As it stands, the historical context of the book was that many of the Jews were suffering intense persecution from others tyring to get them to go back to the Levitical system as it was before.....which Hebrews 10-11 addresses later on when it comes to their recieving encouragement--and why he is speaking on their not going back to old ways as before. Hebrews 8:4 dealt with the fact that High priests offered gifts of thanksgiving and sacrifices for sin---and therefore, Christ had to also offer a sacrifice, which He does...but on HIS OWN terms when in the Heavenly tabernacle. This is also seen in Hebrews 9:11-14, Hebrews 9:23-28 and Hebrews 10:12-14. Jesus, as it stands, could not serve in the earthly tabernacle anyhow since he was not of Aaronic/Levitical heritiage.....

    As said best by another, Jesus's sacrifice never competed with Temple sacrifices/Levitical laws...for His offering does not compete with the services of the Temple, because his blood was never offered there, nor is he a high priest on earth. They co-exist. Both services co-exist. One is a reminder of the other, for one is made as a copy of the other.

    For further explanation
    Hebrews 7:11 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. 13He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.
    Verse 11 of Hebrews makes clear that "if it had been possible to reach the goal....", that is, being renconciled with God and able to be eternally in his prescence, as Yeshua is now. In order for sinful human beings to reach this goal, they must indeed be perfect by having their sins forgiven by God. The author shows later that this can never come about through the Levitical priesthood---but it can come through Yeshua's priesthood.. And on the issue, people forget how there was once accusations by the Jews that Jesus came to change the customs of Moses--as seen in Acts 6:13-15 Acts 6 --though the Tanak itself records at least one change in the Torah, the addition of the festival of Purim....and also that a prominent Jewish tradition speaks of a change in the Torah when the Messiah comes. The logical necessity for such a transformation is demonsrated by verses 11-14 in Hebrews 7...and the scriptural basis for the transformation is found in Psalm 110:4, quoted in Hebrews 5:6, Hebrews 6:20 and Hebrews 7:17. The context makes clear that no change or transformation in the Torah is envisioned other than in connection with the priesthood and the sacrificial system. The issue is one of retention of the basic structure of Torah, as Christ said when he made clear He came to FULFILL the Law/it's requirements.

    With that said, going back to what's said in Hebrews 7:18
    Hebrews 7:15-19

    15And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is declared:
    "You are a priest forever,
    in the order of Melchizedek."a]" =18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
    The second reason for transformation is that the Levitical priesthood set up by the Torah n the form that Moses recieved it from God was based on a rule--concerning PHYSICAL descent from Levi's sons in the priesthood---as a covenant of EVERLASTING priesthood was given to them in Numbers 25:12-14 Numbers 25

    Yeshua by Himself (praise the Lord)) has an everlasting priesthood by the power of indestructible life.....and therefore, due to his line with Mechkilzedck), sets aside the need for a system of passing on the priesthood from one generation to the next, as stated explictly in verses 23-25/Hebrews 7:25 .More is seen as one simply READS the text as it is.

    On Hebrews 8/Hebrews 8:5, people fail to realize that there is no conflict between the LEVITICAL priesthood established by the Torah/law of Moses and that of Jesus--as predicted by Psalm 110-----for the the Torah says that the EARTHLY cohanim must be descendents of Levi...but since Yeshua serves in Heaven, he can be from the tribe of Judah and can have an eternal ministry. As the text makes clear, the covenant we have is an eternal one/far superior. The issue of the HOLY Spirit is another point--as that has been given to us (i.e Romans 7-8, Galatians 2, John 14, etc) where they in the OLD Covenant did not have the same before with the old Torah. This is the issue of the NEW Covenant being given as Torah, rather than destroying the Old one---since the old contract could not be fulfilled by man.

    There was no CHAPTER/VERSE in the epistles--with it being one big letter--and on that, one cannot stop at Hebrews 7-8 if trying to make a case for change in law. One must continue on to what it makes clear further on--as seen in when the author says said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second." ( Hebrews 10:8-10 ).

    God did not take away Torah---but rather the first system of sacrifices and priesthood in order to set up the second in the framework of the One Eternal Torah.
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Its so good and precious when we can all dwell together in unity. We may not always agree, but we can agree to love one another. Its a choice. I choose to love my God, my neighbor and myself. I'm grateful for a tender heart. My heart's desire is to reflect my Father's heart. I love Shimshon and have always enjoyed his insights.
  6. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    Shimshon is truly a blessing...and its always amazing to see what the Lord can share through his people:)