[open] Acts 15 - Is it necessary to keep the law of Moses?

Homesick4Heaven

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Agreed, but observing an old covenant is not the Way Yeshua made for us. :)

This old covenant is the same covenant Y'shua followed and fulfilled. He observed the feasts and Holy Days, He followed the kosher dietary laws as written in Lev. (not the rabbinical laws most Jews refer to today). When did He abolish the Torah? That is what you are teaching and it is a false teaching. The definition of fulfilled here is not 'finished' but rather an example of how we are to live. We are to strive to be like Y'shua.
 
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Shimshon

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Homesick4Heaven said:
This old covenant is the same covenant Y'shua followed and fulfilled. He observed the feasts and Holy Days, He followed the kosher dietary laws as written in Lev. (not the rabbinical laws most Jews refer to today). When did He abolish the Torah? That is what you are teaching and it is a false teaching. The definition of fulfilled here is not 'finished' but rather an example of how we are to live. We are to strive to be like Y'shua.
And as a side-note for all of the TO Messianics reading this, Torah is not abolished either, nor done away with, it is Holy and pure. So lets throw that old argument out from the start, bevakesha



 
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ramblin_ag02

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The words of the Torah about the Torah:

Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;


It doesn't say "I set before you rules so you can honor our conditional covenant." It says life and death, good and evil. Life, death, good, and evil don't change. They are the same today as three thousand years ago, and so is the Torah.

Following Torah is NOT what gives eternal life. This is such a 'Jewish' statement. Following Yeshua is what gives eternal life. This is what Yeshua stated. The Pharisees were 'following Torah' but Yeshua said, 'not one of you follow Torah'. Why? As I stated before, because they did not 'observe' it with Faith.

That's funny. Yeshua says exactly that following the Torah gives eternal life.

Luk 10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and made trial of him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 And he said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.


I think its pretty clear, our complete inability to do as He says without the Spirit notwithstanding.

If it is you striving you are not following the commands of Elohim. He does his works through you, you do NOTHING of yourself. You strive for nothing or you strive in vain.
I'll keep striving with or without your blessing.

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

1Ti 4:9 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.


How else would we know how to do that without the Torah?




The Spirit that is given and dwelling within us?
Would the Spirit speak against the Father and Son? The Father gave us the Torah, the Son lived and taught the Torah, the Spirit works in us to teach us and help us keep the Torah.

Here is the basic difference in our views. To you the Torah is a conditional covenant regarding a small piece of land that prophesies something perfect in the future. To me the Torah is the standard of righteousness and goodness. If you do a good deed, it is because you have followed Torah. If you sin, its because you have disobeyed Torah. If you want to sin less, then you must follow Torah more. When I say follow the Torah, I mean be a good person. To me they are one and the same.
 
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plum

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so many things are done in the name of "following the Spirit" and "being in the Spirit" and following the "lead" of G-d (not written lead, mind you... just a "feeling" or "revelation") that are destructive, unhealthy, even violent. Some times this revelation from the "Spirit" leads to cults, false doctrine, and other deviation from G-d and Messiah.

so... since we shouldn't be paying attention to walking in Torah (while still seeing it as Holy and pretty darn cool aparently), how can we judge whether someone is preaching another gospel? Or if they are truly following what is Right and Truthful? If they claim to be following the Spirit, why should we even question them?

just curious. shimshon, I feel like this is a repeat of some other threads months- even a year ago. Welcome back to the rigamarole. Curious...
 
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Homesick4Heaven

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shimshon said:
And as a side-note for all of the TO Messianics reading this, Torah is not abolished either, nor done away with, it is Holy and pure. So lets throw that old argument out from the start, bevakesha
That is the exact argument you are trying to make in every one of your posts--we do not have to obey the Laws of Moses because Y'shua did away with them and fulfilled Torah, we are only to obey Him. If that were not the argument and the issue, you would never have aimed your 'teaching' at TO Messianics.
 
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plum

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btw, here in the MJF we often obsess over torah observance and sometimes I'm sure it gets to the point where the "works" get in the way of the "relationahip" (but as we see from the Scripture, this is not a new struggle!).
I'll be the first to say that I should at least lighten up so that I am open to learning the Truth if it doesn't fit my strict idea of what Truth is. That's the way I became open to the Spirit's leading (which is apparently all I need) and decided to obey G-d's wishes for righteous living.

I just don't like the idea of someone making a sweeping generalization of the motivations behind the actions of all TO Messianics. If I'm misunderstanding that, fine. I'm sorry if so. But it feels like things are being painted with a wide brush.
 
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Henaynei

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eirene said:
so... since we shouldn't be paying attention to walking in Torah (while still seeing it as Holy and pretty darn cool aparently), how can we judge whether someone is preaching another gospel? Or if they are truly following what is Right and Truthful? If they claim to be following the Spirit, why should we even question them?

just curious. shimshon, I feel like this is a repeat of some other threads months- even a year ago. Welcome back to the rigamarole. Curious...
the fellowship of those such as she, who are astute and well spoken, is a good and honorable thing :D
 
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Flopsy Rabbit

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Seems like alot of confusion to me which isnt coming from G-d. It seems that the simplicity of G-ds way is not so hard to understand. G-d gave us Torah so we would know how He wished us to live, nevermind all the details of why etc. Then Messiah came to show us how to live so we could see with our eyes and understand with our hearts, Then He sent us the Ruach Hakodesh to be with us all the time and help us to follow The laws and ways of G-d our Father. People do not like rules, rules of any kind made by man or G-d, people want to do things their own way. Torah is not appealing to people because of that. Now to say that Messiah came and did away with all of the law and guidlines for living a Holy life pleasing to G-d and to say that now men only have to listen to the spirit. etc. gives man the ultimate freedom to do exactly as he pleases and justify it. Now if Yeshua meant for man not to follow Torah which is the rules of the house for G-ds people, then Yeshua Himself would not have followed it, being here as an example to show us how to live. G-d is our Father, we are His children, He has taught us how to live, He has given us "rules of the house" you might call it, family rules, Rules of the house of G-d. Earthly fathers do the same. They are made in the image of G-d. Now if a child decides he does not want to follow the rules of the house his earthly father has set what do we say? That is a rebellious child who does not want to obey his father. Perhaps his earthly father is wicked and the child has to run away. But our heavenly Father is not wicked, He loves us and has made all the rules and guidelines for living because of His love for us and because being G-d and all wise He knows the outcome of everything. He made no rules for no reason and He made no rules for anything but for our good because He loves us. To say that man does not need to follow is to say that man knows better than G-d, and to flounder around with no foundation or guide to measure right or wrong, just what ever seems right because " the spirit" is leading... Be careful what spirit is leading you, there are many, if you have no measure you have no way to know what spirit speaks. Years far removed from the knowledge of The laws and commands of G-d, Religion that has done away with it, being raised in a human family in the absence of it does not mean it is not to be followed, it means there is alot to learn and every bit learned is a step closer to G-d, and every bit of understanding and knowledge of G-d and His law and ways, is a little more freedom. You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Torah is not bondage it is life.
 
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Shimshon

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eirene said:
just curious. shimshon, I feel like this is a repeat of some other threads months- even a year ago. Welcome back to the rigamarole. Curious...

It's all true......every last word. And I will testify to it till my dying breath. And beyond.


You will find no more rebuttal from me here.

Shalom
 
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Flopsy Rabbit

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Here is todays story:




<FONT face=arial,helvetica>KADDISH FOR A SEFER TORAH

Shavout, Yizkor, 5763

Rabbi Jack Riemer

I want to say Kaddish for a Sefer Torah today, for a Sefer Torah that lived for a fairly long time, and then disappeared in the sight of all the world.

It is the story of a Sefer Torah that made its first appearance in the very depths of Hell, and that made its last appearance in the heights of heaven.

Listen to its story, as it was told by Debbi Wigoren, a reporter who is not Jewish, in the Washington Post.

The bar mitzvah took place before dawn on a Monday in March, l944, inside a barracks at the Bergen Belsen concentration camp.

Those men who were strong enough covered the windows and doors with blankets and stood watch to make sure that no SS guards were coming.


Four candles, scrounged from somewhere, gave off enough flickering light for Rabbi Samuel Dasberg to unfurl this tiny Sefer Torah--the five books of Moses, handwritten by a scribe, on a parchment scroll that was just four and a half inches tall.

Thirteen year old Joachim Joseph chanted the blessings just as the rabbi had taught him, and then he chanted aloud from the ancient scroll in the singsong Hebrew melody that has been passed down for hundreds of years.

"There were people listening in the beds all around," Joachim Joseph, who is now a 71 year old Israeli physicist, recalls, describing the narrow triple decker bunks where the Jewish men and boys slept. "Afterwards everybody congratulated me. Somebody fished out a piece of a chocolate bar that he had been saving and gave it to me. And somebody else fished out a deck of playing cards for me too. Everybody told me, "now you are a bar mitvah, now you are an adult. We are so very proud of you. Mazel tov!" And I felt very good.

"And then everything was quickly taken down, and we went out to roll call."

Rabbi Dasberg also gave Joseph a gift that day. He gave him the miniature Torah scroll that they had used, covered in a red velvet wrapper and tucked into a small green box.

He said: "This little Sefer Torah is yours to keep now, because I am pretty sure that I will not get out of this place alive, but maybe you will." "And you know how children are," Joachim Joseph said when the Washington Post interviewed him by long distance phone. "At first, I didn't want to take it, but he insisted. He convinced me. And the condition was; I HAD TO PROMISE THAT IF I EVER GOT OUT OF THERE, THAT I MUST TELL THE STORY, the story of my bar mitzvah."

The story of that Sefer Torah was told to the world on January 2lst, when Ilan Ramon, the first Israeli astronaut, held the scroll aloft during a live teleconference from aboard the space shuttle Columbia.

"This Torah scroll was given by a rabbi to a young, scared, thin, thirteen year old boy in Bergen Belson," Ramon said from inside the space shuttle. "It represents more than anything the ability of the Jewish people to survive. It represents their ability to go from black days, from periods of darkness, to reach periods of hope and faith in the future."

And then, 11 days after that interview, Space ship Columbia disintegrated on its way back down to earth, and Ilan Ramon and the other members of that crew were killed.

Not all of the experiments and projects that this mission was supposed to accomplish were successful. Many of those experiments perished with them. The results of some of them were sent back down to earth before the Columbia crashed and so they were not lost. But I think that the Sefer Torah fulfilled its mission more thoroughly than any of the other objects aboard that spaceship.

Let me explain how that Sefer Torah came to be on board Columbia and why I feel that it achieved its mission.

One day a few years ago, Ilan Ramon was visiting the home of Joachim Joseph in Tel Aviv. He noticed this miniature Sefer Torah on a shelf in Joseph's study and he asked him what it was. Dr. Joseph, who is now a well known physicist in Israel, explained to him that this Sefer Torah was given to him, in Bergen Belson, on the day of his bar mitzvah.


He explained that he was born in Berlin and raised in Amsterdam. The young Joseph had watched with interest as older boys in his neighborhood celebrated their bar mitzvah. His father, a lawyer, was not particularly religious, but several of his uncles were, and they would sometimes take him with him when they went to synagogue.

Joachim Joseph was not particularly devoted to Jewish rituals, but he did look forward to experiencing the excitement of becoming a bar mitzvah.


And then the Nazis came.

The family was sent to a Dutch prison camp called Westerbork, late in l942. A year later, the Josephs were brought to Bergen Belson, the concentration camp in the Lower Saxony region of Germany, where sixty thousand people died, including their landsman, Anne Frank.

Joseph's father and mother were sent to different sections of the camp. He and his younger brother ended up in a barracks, with Rabbi Dasberg, the former chief rabbi of the Netherlands.
The rabbi had brought some ritual objects and some Jewish texts with him when he was sent to Bergen Belsen, and he tried to study and pray from them every day. At first, such things were permitted. But by l944, conditions at the camp were steadily worsening. A diary entry by a Dutch Jew describes how Rabbi Dasberg and others were caught at the gates of the crematorium, reciting the Kaddish for the dead. They were punished with extra hard labor for their crime.

When Rabbi Dasberg heard that Joachim Joseph was becoming l3 years old, the age of bar mitzvah, he asked if he could teach him. They studied together secretly at night.


"We were still in a good enough condition that we could entertain the thought of doing such a thing," Dr. Joseph remembers. But a couple of months later, Rabbi Dasberg disappeared from his barracks. He died on February 24th, 1945, just a few months before British troops liberated the camp.

Joachim Joseph used rags to wrap the green box that held the Torah, and he hid it deep down at the bottom of his backpack. It stayed there, undetected, as conditions in the camp grew worse and worse. As he approached his l4th birthday, he weighed only 42 pounds. His feet, protected only by rags, rope, and two chunks of an old tire, froze in the winter cold. When he could no longer join the regular work detail, the Nazis gave him an easier assignment. After the morning roll call, it was his job to limp from bunk to bunk, checking to see if those who were still in bed were alive or had died during the night. If they had, it was his job to drag the corpse outside and wait for a cart to come by, so he could load it on.


Freedom came out of the blue. In February, l945, a maternal uncle who had fought for the French Resistance and then escaped to Switzerland, secured fake passports for Joachim and his family from several Latin American countries-something that was very rare so late in the war. The brothers and their parents, emaciated and near death, were reunited and put on a train, with captured foreign nations whom the Germans hoped to exchange for their own POWs. Months later, the family sailed on a British military ship to Palestine, part of a generation of refugees who were determined to build a Jewish state.<B>
 
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Flopsy Rabbit

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Here is the rest of it:

In l95l, Joachim Joseph published the story of his clandestine bar mitzvah in the Jerusalem Post. He hated talking about his life in the concentration camps, and so he did not want to write the article, but his father, who remembered the promise his son had made to Rabbi Dasburg, insisted.

For the next four decades, Joseph said almost nothing about his experiences during the war. He wanted to stop the nightmares he kept having, and he wanted to move.

"I screwed it down, deep down," he says. "I did my best to forget about it."

He studied atmospheric physics, and got a doctorate from UCLA in l966. He pioneered experiments in how dust particles in the atmosphere affect the climate. And that is how he came to meet Ilan Ramon. When Ramon saw the miniature Sefer Torah on the shelf in Dr. Joseph's home, he asked about it, and Dr. Joseph told him the story. And then, a few months later, Ramon called from Houston and asked him for permission to take the Sefer Torah along with him when he went up into space. Dr. Joseph reluctantly agreed, not because he wanted any publicity, but only out of courtesy to the promise that he had made to his rabbi on the day of his bar mitzvah.

And now, now that his grandchildren are 8 and 6 years old, and now that they, like everyone else in the world, have heard about the Sefer Torah that went up into space, he is ready to tell them the story of how he got it. As he said to the reporter from the Washington Post, who called to interview him recently, 'can you hear the noise in the background? Those are my grandchildren calling to me to come out and play with them.

Joseph says that he has no regrets about sending the Torah into space.


"I'm not sorry that it is gone," he says. "It did what it, perhaps, was destined to do."

When I read that story, I had two reactions. One was: I am not sure if that was what the miniature Sefer Torah was destined to do or not. I can't imagine that when his rabbi gave him this Sefer Torah as a gift on the day of his bar mitsvah, that the rabbi, in his wildest dreams, could have imagined that there would someday be a Jewish state, that it would someday have a Jewish astronaut, and that this astronaut would proudly carry this Sefer Torah that he was giving to this child up far into space. And I can't imagine that Rabbi Dasberg could have imagined that this astronaut would hold this Sefer Torah up proudly on world television, and that billions of people all around the world would see it and hear its story.

When Rabbi Dasberg said to this bar mitzvah boy, take this Sefer Torah as a gift from me, and, if you ever get out of here, promise me that you will tell the story of how you got it, little did he know how literally and how powerfully this boy would keep that promise!

And one more thought came to my mind when I read this story. It is a story that we read on Yom Kippur during the martyrology service. It is the story of Rabbi Hanina ben Teradion, who was taken out to be tortured wrapped in a Sefer Torah. The Romans tied him to a stake, and then they lit the fire. And his students said to Rabbi Hanina ben Teradion: our teacher, tell us: what do you see?

And he said: I see the scroll being burned, and I see the letters flying away. And with these words, Rabbi Hanina ben Teradion died.

I think that what the rabbi meant by those words was that the physical scroll, the parchment, could be burned, but the Torah itself was indestructible. As the parchment caught fire and began to burn, the letters flew up to heaven.

And so it is, I believe, with this Sefer Torah that went up in smoke, together with those seven brave astronauts. The parchment may have been destroyed----but the story will go on. The story will continue. The story will live on.

And so today, we say Yizkor, not only for the souls of those seven brave souls who perished on that mission, those six Americans who represented the very best of America, who were male and female, white and black, Hindu and Christian, and for Ilan Ramon. And we also say Yizkor for that miniature Sefer Torah that was originally written somewhere-I don't know exactly where-and that somehow found its way, together with its owner, Rabbi Dasberg, to Bergen Belsen, and that came out of Bergen Belsen intact, together with the young boy who chanted from it on the day of his bar mitzvah, and then made its way, together with him, from Bergen Belsen to the land of Israel. And then went from Tel Aviv to Houston and from Houston to the very heights of heaven, before it fell back to the earth. It did its job. It told its story-to the whole civilized world. And now it can rest, wherever its remains may be, while the letters that were in it fly up to heaven to come back down again into some other Sefer Torah someday, so that the story that it contains, like the story in the Sefer Torah that was wrapped around Rabbi Hanina ben Teradion, may continue to be told.

Let us say Yizkor today for a miniature Torah scroll, that was wrapped in rags and hidden at the bottom of a knapsack, and that survived the Holocaust and that told its story to the whole of humankind. May its story continue to be told.


 
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stone

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shimshon said:
I pray Abba opens up your eyes to it. It's the Kingom of Elohim.

Kingdom Torah has been given. Not many accept it.

A way to live in the presence of Elohim has been made. Yeshua brought it by command of Elohay, and by his command he gave the Spirit. To dwell upon and in all who live by faith. All who believe. Jew or Gentile.

Actually, it's Jew and gentile, not or.

Your not answering my question. I'll ask that you show me with some scripture too. I'll be back tonight, and i'm going to sift through yours and shmeuls replies.
 
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Sephania

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May those who have an ear hear what the Spirit says.

Did the Apostles order that it is a necessity to keep the law of Moses after we believe? The answer is NO.



Truthfully Julia, This is a witness, a testimony. This was not directed at TO's in this forum as was suggested. In fact it was sent as a witness to 'others' who frequent here.
:scratch:
Who could that be then?

There are TO Messianics here- those who beleive in Yeshua, so strike those

There are NT Messianics who come here but also believe in Yeshua, so strike those also

There are Christian who come here to read and fellowship but they already believe the law is nailed to the cross and they believe in Yeshua/Jesus so that eliminates them as well.

Then there are Jews who also come here which don't believe in Yeshua, so that knocks them out also.

So who is left? Unbelievers, which then would make this post a good one to put in the Non-Christian forums where even more like this frequent, no?

:scratch:

This thread was not directed at the TO member here. I prefaced this thread with a 'side-note' that stated this message does not imply 'abolishment' of the Law.


And as a side-note for all of the TO Messianics reading this, Torah is not abolished either, nor done away with, it is Holy and pure. So lets throw that old argument out from the start, bevakesha. This is about 'covenant' not about Torah.

With all those eliminated above, why would unbelievers be interested in covenant? :scratch: Is anyone else here as confused as I ?

Did the Apostles order that it is a necessity to keep the law of Moses after we believe?

This is about 'covenant' not about Torah.

:confused:
 
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Sephania

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Stay clear of those who try and put you back under an old covenant. They are denying the Truth and the Message Yeshua was commanded by Elohim to speak.
When I read this I thought I was out on the general forums, I have had so many Christians say this, I have lost count. What I do count is that they don't understand the word of G-d, but only through an anti-Jewish perspective of the word.

What Dana mentioned
If so, then why do they try to keep the law - keep kosher, Sabbath etc
These things were not done away with at the resurection. We still have to live by the commandment to not eat of certain things, and we ( as those who love the L-RD ) are commanded to keep his Shabbat, to show He is G-d, there is none other, he is the creator G-d, there is no other way, like Darwin proposed and the Dr of spermozia, etc.

I have seen no one here who is trying to put anyone back under the old covenant, to do so would deny what Yeshua did, and still does for us today. That kind of accusation is uncalled for and other things I will Those who make it into the New Kingdom will be keeping the Shabbat and new moons and Sukkot even.

Would the Righteous G-d of the universe give a law to abide by until his son comes then say, no you don't have to do that now, and then when his son comes again, say, Yes, you have to do it again? What kind of nonsense would that be? That is no a G-d who 'changeth not'.

Because the Torah, the Law given Moshe was for the covenant made through Moshe for Yisrael. It related to the Land they were inheriting. All commands relate to 'when you enter the Land I am giving you'. Without the Land you have no way of 'observing' the covnenant.
For there are those of us who believe the L-Rd when he said to the Israelites:

It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood. Lev

perpetual= forever
statue = ordinance, rite
all dwellings = habitations, locations ( in other words, where ever you live, not just the land)


And the priest shall burn them upon the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire for a sweet savour: all the fat is the LORD'S. Lev 3


Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Stand up and bless the LORD your God for ever and ever: and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise. 6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee. ne 9.....13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:

Isa 56 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

Also the sons of the stranger, ( the goyim the gentiles )that join themselves to the L-RD, to serve him, and to love the name of the L-RD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Isa 66 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the L-RD.


Isaiah 58:13-14 13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the L-RD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the L-RD hath spoken it.
 
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Homesick4Heaven

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I am.


:sigh:
Just a note to the false teaching presented as personal revelation from God about Acts 15 and the one that teaches it:
1 Timothy 6 (New American Standard Bible)

Instructions to Those Who Minister


1 All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against. ... 3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth...

shimshon, knowing this teaching is not supported by Scripture and not held by those in this forum, you came here with the intention of causing strife and discord among Abba's children. The above Scripture speaks to your motivations. This behavior and line of teaching cannot continue here.

I have tried being nice and diplomatic in my approach, as have all others here. Now I state it plainly. Enough. Either back up your 'revelation' with other Scripture instead of that which you have removed from context, changed words and distorted or admit you are teaching false docterine. At this point I will be quiet and let someone else (perhaps with more wisdom and tact than I have shown....) step in.
 
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