Only the elect are saved. Jesus was delivered up for us all who are the elect.

[AndOne]

The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.


Let's agree that those who who finally enjoyed the wedding are the "elect."


And yet, those who were invited were found ultimately, "not worthy."

But who were those that were originally invited? Were their invitations a sham by the king? Was the king not serious in their invitation? Did the king not really intend that his first invited guests actually attend? Did king lie when he said, "You are invited?"

And would the party have been large enough for everyone?

Did Jesus have enough blood to have covered the entire world, or is His blood limited in capability and His grace in capacity?

Vs 14 from that text pretty much sums it up. Many are called but few are chosen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm simply reading the verses for what they say. You don't seem to be....

Hey, that's been my line all this time!! For example, Heb 2:9.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.


Let's agree that those who who finally enjoyed the wedding are the "elect."

Those who actually attended represent those who have responded to the gospel promise of God and who are saved.

And yet, those who were invited were found ultimately, "not worthy."

Those who didn't come were not worthy. And one who did come was found "not worthy", by his failure to wear the proper wedding clothes, and was thrown out into the darkness. This represents a believer who's life wasn't obedient or faithful, and as a result, lost reward.

But who were those that were originally invited?

Jews.

[QIUOTE] Were their invitations a sham by the king? Was the king not serious in their invitation?[/QUOTE]
No, and yes, He was serious.

Did the king not really intend that his first invited guests actually attend?

He did.

Did king lie when he said, "You are invited?"

He did not lie.

And would the party have been large enough for everyone?

Absolutely.

Did Jesus have enough blood to have covered the entire world, or is His blood limited in capability and His grace in capacity?

More than enough to cover the entire world. And He actually did cover the entire world. As John the baptizer once noted in Jn 1:29, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world".

 

[AndOne]

Hey, that's been my line all this time!! For example, Heb 2:9.

But apparently not the verses that follow....

 

[FreeGrace2]

But apparently not the verses that follow....

From v.10 on the paragraph changes, and with that, the subject shifts to believers. Which has nothing to do with who Christ died for. He died for all. It really is that simple.

 

[bleitzel]

You bet some are excluded, since it is the elect of God who will be saved.
The non elect will not be saved.

Not to be facetious, but there aren't any non-elect. Paul never talks about them. He uses the terms chosen, elect, etc. but he's correcting an ancient misunderstanding that the Jews had. They thought there was a non-elect group but they were wrong. They thought they were elect and that meant that the Gentiles were non-elect.

But they were wrong. Paul was correcting that error. We shouldn't repeat it.

 

[RDKirk]

Not to be facetious, but there aren't any non-elect. Paul never talks about them. He uses the terms chosen, elect, etc. but he's correcting an ancient misunderstanding that the Jews had. They thought there was a non-elect group but they were wrong. They thought they were elect and that meant that the Gentiles were non-elect.

But they were wrong. Paul was correcting that error. We shouldn't repeat it.

I think "chosen, elect" is a term we cannot fully understand. It's kind of a "wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey" thing involving God's characteristic of extemporal simultanaity. That means what is "past, present, future" for us is a single moment of "present" for God. Just as He exists simultaneousy at every point in space, He also exists simultaneously in every moment of time. God is and all of time for God is.

Because God exists outside of time and sees the whole of time in a single glance as a single moment, He can know for all of time what the end of each person is (for Him) and will be (for us). So He can speak of "chosen" as though it's a done deal.

But we can't. God can speak with certainty of the outcome of past events that did not even happen, such as when Jesus said:

Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. -- Matthew 11

For a long time, I took this as an instance of hyperbole on Jesus' part, and that what He was saying of Tyre and Sidon was a hypothetical "what if" and nothing more.

But the next part is not hypothetical at all. Jesus is stating "facts of the future."

But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” -- Matthew 11

Jesus asserts that it will be more bearable for Sodom, not based on what happened, but what would have happened under a condition that never actually occurred. He did not say, "might have been more bearable," He said "will be."

Jesus is saying that God can even make a judgment of what would have been from what never actually occurred. That means God can rightly judge that a person who never heard the gospel would have accepted it had he heard it.

 

[AndOne]

From v.10 on the paragraph changes, and with that, the subject shifts to believers. Which has nothing to do with who Christ died for. He died for all. It really is that simple.

Based on this logic I should assume that you don't believe Christ died for believers. This is what happens when you don't let the text flow naturally - inconsistency. Then again - maybe you really don't believe it which in and of itself is a major issue of twisting scripture to suit ones own tradition.

 

[bleitzel]

I think "chosen, elect" is a term we cannot fully understand. It's kind of a "wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey" thing involving God's characteristic of extemporal simultanaity. That means what is "past, present, future" for us is a single moment of "present" for God. Just as He exists simultaneousy at every point in space, He also exists simultaneously in every moment of time. God is and all of time for God is.

Because God exists outside of time and sees the whole of time in a single glance as a single moment, He can know for all of time what the end of each person is (for Him) and will be (for us). So He can speak of "chosen" as though it's a done deal.

I can appreciate your point of view and I respect the seriousness with which you probably wrestled with this to come to this point of view. Based on what many theologians teach I think you have a very sound assessment.

The difference we have though is that you're talking about those who are chosen/elect you're implying that there are those who are not chosen/elect.

It doesn't really matter if our understanding is temporal and God's is not, this doesn't affect how we think the chosen/elect concept eliminates free will because there isn't a non-chosen/elect.

Paul is explaining a very new concept to the 1st century Judaic world, that the Jews were chosen as God's people, but the non-Jews have also been chosen! They've been adopted into the family of God. There are no non-chosen people, all people are chosen. Some were chosen directly by God through Abraham, and some were chosen through Christ, but all are chosen, all people are God's people, loved by God. None are hated by God and cast out of his people.

 

[Skala]

I can appreciate your point of view and I respect the seriousness with which you probably wrestled with this to come to this point of view. Based on what many theologians teach I think you have a very sound assessment.

The difference we have though is that you're talking about those who are chosen/elect you're implying that there are those who are not chosen/elect.

It doesn't really matter if our understanding is temporal and God's is not, this doesn't affect how we think the chosen/elect concept eliminates free will because there isn't a non-chosen/elect.

Paul is explaining a very new concept to the 1st century Judaic world, that the Jews were chosen as God's people, but the non-Jews have also been chosen! They've been adopted into the family of God. There are no non-chosen people, all people are chosen. Some were chosen directly by God through Abraham, and some were chosen through Christ, but all are chosen, all people are God's people, loved by God. None are hated by God and cast out of his people.

Guys. Everyone is chosen by God. That means when you read in the Bible that God chose you, it doesn't really mean anything and God has no special love for you and didn't seek you out from eternity past. You're just a number like an employee in a big corporation.

 

[RDKirk]

The primary points intended by the term "chosen" in scripture:

1. You are not a believer as a matter of "fortune" or happenstance. It was not an accident, it was God's intention.

2. You are not a believer by result of your own actions.

 

[bleitzel]

Guys. Everyone is chosen by God. That means when you read in the Bible that God chose you, it doesn't really mean anything and God has no special love for you and didn't seek you out from eternity past. You're just a number like an employee in a big corporation.

Skala, my point is that God did not pick only some out to seek from eternity past. He has sought all of us, all of us are special, He loves all people. Are you going to argue that he only loves some? That he only sought some? That's what the Jews believed, only they were special. Then Jesus came, and it was revealed to Peter and taught extensively by Paul that wasn't true. Jews and Gentiles alike were loved by God, chosen by God, elect into the family of God. No one was cast out from his love, He loves all people. All can have eternal life.

To think that the Bible message is one that says God only chose some and they are special and the others, well too bad for them, is a travesty. It dishonors God.

 

[bleitzel]

The primary points intended by the term "chosen" in scripture:

1. You are not a believer as a matter of "fortune" or happenstance. It was not an accident, it was God's intention.

2. You are not a believer by result of your own actions.

In response to #1, yes, God has to choose you before you can choose Him. Before Jesus we used to think He only chose the Jews, now we can see that He chose everyone. But you are not a believer because God chose you. God chose to forgive all people, he has chosen to do that for everyone, that is what chosen means in the Bible. It was not an accident that He decided to choose everyone, Jews and Gentiles, it was God's plan all along. But not everyone will become a believer.

And to #2, not entirely, no. God did have to forgive you, but if you don't believe and repent you won't be a believer. God gives you the ability to believe, but you have to do the believing and repenting.

 

[Shulamite]

Your wrong in the definition of the Father's children. The Father rescues all of His children, because all of His children are the elect. And none of the non elect are His children.

Who are these elect that Jesus tells us about?



Jesus compares this evil judge with the true God and says God will avenge His own elect speedily who continually cry out to Him for help.

Only God's children are saved being children of the resurrection, justified by Him and therefore counted worthy to attain to the age to come.

If you are not justified by God in His sight, then you are not saved. If your not saved your not elect.

AMEN