Only ignorant fools would call God a monster...

Johnny4ChristJesus

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If God chose to torture all humans & all angels for the endless ages of eternity, had never sent His Son to die for their sins, and will spend eternity sadistically laughing His head off about it, would He be a monster? Yes or No

If He were a monster then He has the right to do whatever an insane psychopathic sadistic monster does. But He's not a monster, is He? He is love, the kind of love that lays down its life for its enemies.

The thing you are missing is either you think you have a right to judge YOUR CREATOR--if HE does things differently than you think HE should OR you are using language that suggests that in order to manipulate and twist people to your opinion.
 
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ClementofA

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The thing you are missing is either you think you have a right to judge YOUR CREATOR--if HE does things differently than you think HE should OR you are using language that suggests that in order to manipulate and twist people to your opinion.

What does that even mean - "have a right to judge"? Do humans not have the God given ability & authority over their minds & hearts to make a judgement (i.e. form an opinion) about God their creator as he is presented by various persons & religions (Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, Calvinists, JWs, etc), as to whether or not each view of God as described by various groups is good, bad or so-so? Yes, they do. Not only that, but every human being has (or will) exercise that ability & authority given by God to do exactly that, i.e. judge (form an opinion about) God. They must do so. They have no choice in the matter. So, yes, God created beings do have the God given right, in that sense, to judge God, their creator. What makes you think otherwise? Jesus Himself said, Why do you not of yourselves judge what is right (Lk.12:57). " Judge for yourselves:..." (1 Cor.11:13a). "Does not even nature itself teach you..." (1 Cor. 11:14).

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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What does that even mean - "have a right to judge"? Do humans not have the God given ability & authority over their minds & hearts to make a judgement (i.e. form an opinion) about God their creator as he is presented by various persons & religions (Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, Calvinists, JWs, etc), as to whether or not each view of God as described by various groups is good, bad or so-so? Yes, they do. Not only that, but every human being has (or will) exercise that ability & authority given by God to do exactly that, i.e. judge (form an opinion about) God. They must do so. They have no choice in the matter. So, yes, God created beings do have the God given right, in that sense, to judge God, their creator. What makes you think otherwise? Jesus Himself said, Why do you not of yourselves judge what is right (Lk.12:57). " Judge for yourselves:..." (1 Cor.11:13a). "Does not even nature itself teach you..." (1 Cor. 11:14).

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

1. So your theology groups people who accept the Christian Bible as the Word of God, but hold a different theology based on those same Scriptures than yours as equal to those who don't even accept our Bible as the Word of God--like muslims? Okay. I appreciate that, since I think a lot of people claim to believe the Bible but reject what Jesus Himself is quoted as saying in it. So, I would have to concur that not everyone who claims to believe in the God detailed in the Christian Bible are born again or walking in the Spirit (like we are told we must). Practicing dead religion means nothing to God apart from relationship with Him that motivates you. Agreed.
2. Wow, Luke 12:57 and 1 Cor 11:13-14 have absolutely nothing to do with giving you or anyone else the authority to judge God as a monster if He does something you don't like. satan twists Scripture for his own purposes, too! Remember?

So, here are the Scriptures that you pulled a few words out of in order to justify your right to judge God: (1 Cor 11:13-14): "Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man has long hair, it is a shame unto him?" (Luke 12:56-58): "You hypocrites, you can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that you do not discern this time? Yes, and why even of yourselves judge you not what is right? When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, as you are in the way, give diligence that you may be delivered from him; lest he hale you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer cast you into prison."

Neither of those two sets of verses supports you judging God.

3. The more appropriate verses for you to cite would be Paul's discussion in Romans 9, except they go against your way of thinking. Paul says: "Who are you to reply against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, 'why have You made me thus?' Has not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another vessel unto dishonor?What if God, willing to show wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy...." (Romans 9:20-23)

Why doesn't God have the right to do what He wants with what He created without that which He created telling Him that He did it all wrong?

Was it not God who placed a curse on all mankind when Adam disobeyed Him?

Was it not God who said this in Genesis 6:5-8, 13, 17: "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart. And the LORD said: "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air, for it repents me that I have made them." But, Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.... 13: And God said to Noah:"The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold I will destroy them with the earth. 17 And, behold I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heave, and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with you will I make a covenant...."

And Noah's Ark was before the Mosaic Law. Yet, we are told this in Hebrews 10:28-31: "He that despised Moses' Law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Blood of the Covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of Grace? For we know Him that has said: 'Vengeance belongs to Me, I will recompense,' says the Lord. And again, 'The Lord shall judge His people.' It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." In Romans 1:18-32, Paul talks about the progressively negative consequences of rejecting the knowledge that leaves them "without excuse" according to Romans 1:20. These consequences include: "became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves wise they became fools (Rom 1:21-22).... Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves (Rom 1:24).... "For this cause, God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the nature use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness....Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (Rom 1:26-32)

Then consider a similar word spoken in 2 Thes 2:10-12: "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they received not the love of the Truth, that they might be saved, and for this cause, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

So, again, if satan is a being that was created by God (which he is, according to God) and satan is being "cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever", according to Rev 20:10, why is it preposterous that a man--who has been warned by God ahead of time--could be also? After all, God made a way for man to avoid it. He didn't make a way for satan to avoid the lake of fire. And, yet, some men laugh at God--who willingly allowed His beloved Son to be sacrificed for us--and continue to actively teach and preach against Him.

So, if you want to be found judging the only True and Living God and calling Him a monster. Just understand, you have been warned by one of His servants.
 
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ClementofA

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3. The more appropriate verses for you to cite would be Paul's discussion in Romans 9, except they go against your way of thinking. Paul says: "Who are you to reply against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, 'why have You made me thus?' Has not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another vessel unto dishonor?What if God, willing to show wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy...." (Romans 9:20-23)

Why doesn't God have the right to do what He wants with what He created without that which He created telling Him that He did it all wrong?

God has the power to do what He wants within the limits of that power, but that doesn't automatically make it morally righteous if he does anything. Would he be morally right to do what Satan does & wants? No. Would he be morally righteous if he lied or otherwise acted contrary to his nature? No. Would he be morally righteous if he tortured all beings, angels & humans included, for all eternity, just for the fun of it, like a monster? No.
 
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ClementofA

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1. So your theology groups people who accept the Christian Bible as the Word of God, but hold a different theology based on those same Scriptures than yours as equal to those who don't even accept our Bible as the Word of God--like muslims?

My post didn't comment on any group being "equal" to another group, let alone define in what sense the word "equal" would mean in such a context. Furthermore, i don't see how your comments in this regard had anything to do with the topic of discussion..

2. Wow, Luke 12:57 and 1 Cor 11:13-14 have absolutely nothing to do with giving you or anyone else the authority to judge God as a monster if He does something you don't like.

Yet my post to which you are answering already explained that everyone will & must "judge God", i.e. form an opinion about Him one way or another. So i don't need any Scripture to prove that. Moreover Jesus plainly says "Why do you not of yourselves judge what is right" (Lk.12:57). Obviously that can be applied to what God does.


Was it not God who placed a curse on all mankind when Adam disobeyed Him?

Is there a point to this question or the verses you quoted?

So, again, if satan is a being that was created by God (which he is, according to God) and satan is being "cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever", according to Rev 20:10, why is it preposterous that a man--who has been warned by God ahead of time--could be also? After all, God made a way for man to avoid it. He didn't make a way for satan to avoid the lake of fire.

Where does Scripture say God didn't make a way for Satan to avoid the lake of fire? If that were so, then that would be as monstrous as Calvinistic double predestination.

As for your self-contradictory deceptive translation "for ever and ever":

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
 
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A person who would call God a monster is not my brother, nor His son. If they repented and came to Jesus in Spirit and Truth, then what I said would no longer apply to them as a new creation. It is said in Scripture also that "The fool says in his heart their is no God." (Psa 14:1) As Jesus is the Word of God Himself, He surely didn't miss that. And, if I am wrong and not speaking by God's Spirit, then yes, I am in danger of hell fire (Matt 5:22).

Your discussion of peoples' ignorance doesn't excuse them. In fact, with all the Scripture you quoted, I am sure you didn't miss things like God saying: "My people perish for lack of knowledge." (Hosea 4:6). And, what of those who will be deceived, out of ignorance, by those who teach them that the God described in the Old and New Testaments is a monster?

What if I am more like Phinehas in God's sight than the one Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5:22? After all, Phinehas would have been responsible for the 10 commandments. And, God said "Don't murder"; yet when Phinehas drove a spear into the Israelite man and the woman, God rewarded that act by stopping the plague and Phinehas was given promises by God through Moses. (Numbers 25:8,11-13)

I will never be paralyzed into inaction by God's Word--the very One who chose to wake me up and the very One I serve.

There are people who believe that inappropriate content is not a sin. God approving of such a sin is not the God of the Bible. There are cult leaders who abused children and they no doubt twisted Scripture to justify their actions that God approved of them in doing so. Again, this is not the God of the Bible. So to say that this version of god (little "g") is a monster would not be incorrect to say. The same is true when it comes to God punishing people. If the God of the Bible is truly righteous (and He is), then He would not torture people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. To say that such a version of god is not the God of the Bible and is a monster would not be far from the truth because it goes outside the good character of what we know about God. For is Rob Bell saying that the God of the Bible is a monster? If so, then he is condemned. But if he is saying that if a god (little "g") tortures someone for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes, then that is descriptive of what we would know to be a monster or cruel dictator. It would be unfair justice. Do you believe in fair justice? What if your family was tortured for the rest of their lives by a cruel dictator for lying in his country? Would you think that maybe they deserved such cruel torture?
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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God has the power to do what He wants within the limits of that power, but that doesn't automatically make it morally righteous if he does anything. Would he be morally right to do what Satan does & wants? No. Would he be morally righteous if he lied or otherwise acted contrary to his nature? No. Would he be morally righteous if he tortured all beings, angels & humans included, for all eternity, just for the fun of it, like a monster? No.

So, then, "morally right" is completely subjective to your whims and culturally-popular norms. Mine arent.. the One who created us sets my moral standard. I dont decide when HE can or cant do something or what HE can or cant do. He does.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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There are people who believe that inappropriate content is not a sin. God approving of such a sin is not the God of the Bible. There are cult leaders who abused children and they no doubt twisted Scripture to justify their actions that God approved of them in doing so. Again, this is not the God of the Bible. So to say that this version of god (little "g") is a monster would not be incorrect to say. The same is true when it comes to God punishing people. If the God of the Bible is truly righteous (and He is), then He would not torture people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. To say that such a version of god is not the God of the Bible and is a monster would not be far from the truth because it goes outside the good character of what we know about God. For is Rob Bell saying that the God of the Bible is a monster? If so, then he is condemned. But if he is saying that if a god (little "g") tortures someone for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes, then that is descriptive of what we would know to be a monster or cruel dictator. It would be unfair justice. Do you believe in fair justice? What if your family was tortured for the rest of their lives by a cruel dictator for lying in his country? Would you think that maybe they deserved such cruel torture?

So you are another who thinks you get to judge God. I am sorry for you. You are wrong.
 
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ClementofA

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So, then, "morally right" is completely subjective to your whims and culturally-popular norms.

My post didn't say that. It said:

"God has the power to do what He wants within the limits of that power, but that doesn't automatically make it morally righteous if he does anything. Would he be morally right to do what Satan does & wants? No. Would he be morally righteous if he lied or otherwise acted contrary to his nature? No. Would he be morally righteous if he tortured all beings, angels & humans included, for all eternity, just for the fun of it, like a monster? No."


the One who created us sets my moral standard.

Scripture details God's moral standards. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth in the Scriptures (the 66 books of the Bible).

I dont decide when HE can or cant do something or what HE can or cant do. He does.

You don't decide what Satan does either. Neither would you decide if God were an all powerful satanic monster.

If he were an insane psychopathic sadistic monster then he would act according to his monstrous nature. But He's not a monster, is He? He is love, the kind of love that lays down its life for its enemies.
 
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So you are another who thinks you get to judge God. I am sorry for you. You are wrong.

Most people have a wrong opinion or misunderstanding about God and what He would do or won’t do. Do you honestly believe God judges unfairly? I don’t think so. If you can explain to me how it is fair, just, and good to torture someone in flames for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes, then go right ahead and try and do so. Jesus was an example of the love of God. He said pray and do good towards your enemies. Yes, Jesus will return to execute justice upon those nations, but He won’t be torturing people alive.

Oh, and I used to believe in Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) in the beginning of my faith. I was even on the fence for a while between ECT and Conditional Immortality. But in time, after examining the Scriptures and the moral issue more closely, I became convinced that the God of ECT is not the God of the Bible.
 
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2tim_215

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One of our biggest problems is understanding God which we see much of throughout this entire thread. Scripture tells us in Romans 11:
Romans 11:33-36 (KJV)
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, anhd to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Job 36:26 (KJV) Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.

This presents some problems for us. If we are unable to know God what are we to think of Him if He's impossible to know? Well the answer is simple, we actually do know Him through the Jesus Christ. If we know Jesus, than we see God's character in human form. Not only do we know Him, but we know He'good. Is God a monster? Anyone who might believe this or think it's true needs to ask himself: Is Jesus a Monster? I think we all know the answer to this. I think that this is one of the reasons that God presents Himself to us as Jesus is for that very reason, so that we can know Him and in a much greater way.

I really like the Book of Job. It give us some profound things which we do not find anywhere else in the word of God and actually solves some mysteries for us. For one thing, it demonstrates who our real enemy is (Satan) whose sole purpose is to destroy mankind and who is the true monster. Every evil thing that mankind has dealt with from the beginning of our history up through now has been perpetrated by him and his demonic spirits (Eph 6:12), yet we blame each other or in some cases like in this thread, we want to blame God Himself. In Job 38, after all the suffering that Job goes through, and after all his friends give their explanation for his plight, God shows up in the whirlwind and this is what He says,

Job 38:1-11 (KJV)
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

I'd say to those who question God's character (those who would insinuate that God's a monster) they read the rest of this chapter and if they have any questions as to this, they just examine Jesus Christ. And for those who wish to accuse God, it's not going to get you anywhere, or anywhere you want to be for that matter. Blessings.
 
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FredVB

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I believe from what I read that there is eternity for us all, and we are designed for that, while since the fall with the rebellion to Yahweh that there is there is death to us still, that our bodies don't still function for us.

There is justice, this is not to be dismissed. It is not for Yahweh's fun that those not responding to the grace with essential faith that has repentance to sin will suffer misery. There isn't torture to come, and for sure not eternally, that I could understand from reading the scriptures. But the real justice there is, from righteous Yahweh who is without limit, to whom we are like what microbes are to us, cannot be just dismissed. Yahweh graciously beyond measure provided the way for the justice for our rebellion with all our acts to be born for us, with Jesus having come for that. Those who resist that to live still their own way will always and forever rue that, with misery ahead, which is an existence but not a life, but no torture is needed to be involved with that, there just will be the just consequences that come. There was imagery shown to depict what can't be known in physical terms. Yahweh is certainly always just.
 
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