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Featured Only ignorant fools would call God a monster...

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I understand that different people choose to understand the Scriptures differently; but I will say one thing without ever feeling the need to repent:
    (1) If God is truly THE GOD who holds all judgment in His hand--including who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, and
    (2) If what those who wrote what is claimed to be Holy Spirit inspired truly represents the character of God and what He said--when He is claimed to have spoken;

    THEN, it is the mark of an ignorant fool to assume that he understands Scripture so well that he (or she) has the right to judge God if their interpretation is wrong.

    Furthermore, calling God a monster--if He doesn't conform to your interpretation of Scripture--proves your continued self-centeredness and betrays that you aren't regenerated by God. For someone with a relationship with God has NEVER called God a monster and wouldn't ever even dream of such a thing.

    My suggestion to those ignorant fools, including Rob Bell, is to repent while there is still time and ask God to forgive you.
     
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  2. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    It's good to keep in mind also that a lot of people merely have no idea what is in the Old Testament more fully, but just a misrepresentation of what is in there instead.

    So, for instance, they could then be misled to think that God destroyed innocent cities/nations, contrary to the actual situations, or alternatively that God destroyed cities/nations for different reasons than the actual reasons, and just be unaware. Not knowing such things as Ezekiel 16:49-50, Genesis 6:5,11, Deuteronomy 12:31 (and many verses like it) (also, the NIV is more clear than this site's ASV), and so they instead believe some other thing not like the actual reasons cities or peoples were sent on to Judgement Day (where the guilty and innocent will be sorted/separated), and so it requires ignorance in those common viewpoints many have out there trying to claim unjust actions in the Old Testament. Now, many will have delusions, because they are hard hearted. And there may be little you could do for a hard hearted person but pray that their heart be softened. It's important though to remember that some are merely misled, and to keep in mind the crucial warning to you in Matthew 5:22
     
  3. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A person who would call God a monster is not my brother, nor His son. If they repented and came to Jesus in Spirit and Truth, then what I said would no longer apply to them as a new creation. It is said in Scripture also that "The fool says in his heart their is no God." (Psa 14:1) As Jesus is the Word of God Himself, He surely didn't miss that. And, if I am wrong and not speaking by God's Spirit, then yes, I am in danger of hell fire (Matt 5:22).

    Your discussion of peoples' ignorance doesn't excuse them. In fact, with all the Scripture you quoted, I am sure you didn't miss things like God saying: "My people perish for lack of knowledge." (Hosea 4:6). And, what of those who will be deceived, out of ignorance, by those who teach them that the God described in the Old and New Testaments is a monster?

    What if I am more like Phinehas in God's sight than the one Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5:22? After all, Phinehas would have been responsible for the 10 commandments. And, God said "Don't murder"; yet when Phinehas drove a spear into the Israelite man and the woman, God rewarded that act by stopping the plague and Phinehas was given promises by God through Moses. (Numbers 25:8,11-13)

    I will never be paralyzed into inaction by God's Word--the very One who chose to wake me up and the very One I serve.
     
  4. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Atheists attacking God are being fools.

    And indeed believers should be learning by reading in the Bible (remembering of course that first they should read the words of Christ, so it take time to finally get to the Old Testament normally).

    But because there are a couple more groups also that can fall prey to those wrong ideas that atheists like to spread -- example: God is bad for destroying peoples in the Old Testament -- such as for instance some believers at times wonder, because for instance some are young in the faith and do not know much about what is in the Old Testament, then we need Matthew 5:22 in relation to our brothers/sisters, believers. See? Later in time you'll hear (or perhaps already have) a believer (not an atheist) that merely does not know the Old Testament, asking about those same wrong ideas (which atheists like to say over and over), such as claiming God destroyed innocent people, and that's the moment Matthew 5:22 is valuable to remember. See? We have to carefully avoid getting into a habit of using the word fool, so that we don't end up wrongly calling a believer a fool some day, due to their lack of knowledge of scripture.

    So, 2 different groups, not alike.

    Next, there is the crucial lessons about the difference between judging a person vs judging an action or idea. A person isn't an action or idea of course. We are to judge actions, ideas, things carefully (john 7:24), but never to judge a person themselves as a soul (Matthew 7:1-5). Keeping all of this in mind, I want to always avoid using the word fool directly against someone in a way that is condemning or a permanent label (as is typically done), because for example, they might turn and repent and be saved, at some unknown time. Of course on the other hand, we can quote the verse as needed. That's not me myself judging a person and calling a person a fool, but instead quoting a verse like a warning or guidepost.
     
  5. Emli

    Emli Growing daughter of God Supporter

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    Amen! We are all works in progress, and we can only understand the things of God once He has opened our eyes.

    During the first months I was saved, I used to scream at God telling Him I hated Him for killing people, sending them to Hell etc. It is a natural response, and a good one if we don't understand His purpose (that He was and will destroy evil), because killing people is generally wrong (according to God Himself) and we shouldn't blindly accept it. What did God do? Calmed me down, loved me, showed me patience and then opened my eyes. We should show each other that same patience.
     
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  6. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What you keep missing and fail to address in your posts is people choosing to call God a monster. A believer, no matter how steeped in ignorance of the Old Testament or New Testament would never say that--no matter how ignorant--about God. Since I have opened posts twice by calling this to your attention (in my original post and in my response to you), I can only assume willful ignorance on your part. You and your supporter are free to continue in willful ignorance. God gives you that choice. I choose to stand with God. And, I would not want to be someone who called God a monster simply because God, in His wisdom, chose to create something called hell and allow for a human to choose to go there by his/her words and actions.
     
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  7. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    You're too combative, too contentious here. That's a wrong.

    I'll simply agree (again!) that indeed a non believer making accusations against God is of course acting as a fool (as I said before. I won't engage in combat with you though.

    Love you!
     
  8. Petros2015

    Petros2015 Well-Known Member

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    Miss what? I feel like I missed something.
     
  9. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So, you would call a nonbelievers who called God a monster a fool. But, you would give a believer who calls God a monster a pass? Huh?
     
  10. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Huh? You said. Look more closely.

    Not calling a believer a "fool" is simply obeying Christ, avoiding hell.

    If you know the bible though, you can defend it. By quoting the actually relevant verses according to what they are getting wrong. Better yet, you can help them, after you know the bible.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    I don't usually find many people calling God a monster. I do know plenty of people whose interpretation of Scripture, their theological stances, and the way they speak about God presents God as though He were a monster. But God isn't a monster, and fortunately people who would paint God as a monster are wrong.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  13. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was surprised you responded again, after calling me contentious--which seemed to be your way out. And, I am going to continue to bypass the barbs...

    But the real issue is your definition of a believer does not match the Scriptural definition of a believer. My assertion has been that a believer would never consider referring to God as a monster--even if He did something or enforced something that they didn't understand.

    Abraham didn't question God's character or call him a monster when God told him he was going to destroy the cities. Abraham was concerned about the righteous who might be in those cities. Noah wasn't calling God a monster when He flooded the world. Moses didn't call God a monster when people who stuck by their idols or insurrection were swallowed up by the earth, nor did He refer to God as a monster when God threatened to kill all the Israelites and start over with Moses. Moses was concerned about God's reputation--as a friend would be--not making character judgments about God, if he would.

    Jesus Himself talked about hell. And, Jesus showed an image in Luke 16 of the rich man and the beggar. Jesus didn't call His Father "a monster" for allowing the rich man to suffer in an area in Hades where there was a fixed gulf that no one could cross--at least suggesting there was no rescue for him. And, father Abraham didn't have an issue with the torture the rich man was suffering either, according to Jesus' story.

    So, if we are going to talk about obeying Christ Jesus, let's also talk about following His full example. Let's consider that we were created in God's image, so ultimately, the closer we get to Him the more we look like Him--not looking like and acting like the world in all it's rebellion and judgment of God, and not taking each independent word Jesus spoke taken out of the context of the whole.

    Jesus didn't do what the enforcers of the Law felt He should have done every step of the way. Did that make Jesus wrong or them wrong?
     
  14. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are people )on this forum) who consider themselves to be Christians that claim 'god to be a Monster. As for whether or not they are, I don't think it's fair for us to say what they are, although I agree to call God a monster is blasphemous. Now of course they could be "faking" to be Christians but I can't definitively say that's the case.

    The Bible tells us that there will be many false teachers and also say that Satan's ministers disguise themselves as angels of light so who knows: What is important is that we who are versed in scripture do not allow ourselves to fall pray to any false doctrine. I understand Johhny4hrist how you are offended by those who would accuse God of being a Monster as I too am offended by this.

    I think those who would make these kind of false claims probably have some sort of axe to grind with God and probably deep down know that this is not true. As for those who flat out don't believe (or at least say they don't) are in fact fools (or are just flat out lying).
     
  15. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But, that is a very tricky stance. You are assuming that your interpretation of Scripture is correct and therefore making a character judgment of God, if how others interpret the Scripture is correct and yours is not.

    I do believe in hell as I believe it is described in the Bible. I understand that differs from your position. I think God would be fully justified in sending people to a place of eternal torment, if He so chose, just like God would be fully justified in sending satan and the demons to a place of eternal torment, if He so chose. And, that wouldn't make God a monster. He would simply be enforcing what He had already said would happen to those who refused to accept the opportunity He offered them. No one will be able to say He didn't try to intervene on their behalf. If people are allowed to make a choice, they should be responsible for the choice they make and the consequences associated with that choice. It seems like we think we have life apart from Him and therefore we think we have a right to judge God if He does something that we don't understand from our perspective.

    In my position, I'm not judging God's character either way. If God chooses to send people to a place of eternal conscious torment, I believe He has that right as their Creator. And, if God chooses to just annihilate them, I believe He has that right as their Creator. And, if God chooses to perform some spiritual lobotomy on unbelievers, so that He can save everyone, that is also His choice and I guarantee that if He chose to do that, it will have been something we missed in the Scriptures. I serve an amazing God. He doesn't owe us a thing and yet He chooses to do so much for us.

    So, someone like yourself can say, in ignorance of course, that if God does what I believe that would make Him a monster. That wouldn't be true. In contrast, that would make Him a God of His Word who upholds what He says and warns people in advance before He does something, so they can avoid it--if they will only listen to the many warnings they are getting instead of focusing on watered down or self-centered messages from the pulpit.
     
  16. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for your thought out response. I appreciate your take.

    Paul said something that sticks with me about trading places with his countrymen, if he could. I always struggled with that, because I love that God woke me up and I would never consciously give that away for anything. But, my new heart has a different approach.

    In essence, I guess that is what I am willing to do, if my direct approach is not accepted by God. If God feels I am judging inappropriately, then I am in trouble. I understand that.

    But, what if one or more has been just blinded by the "Christian religious system" to think they are something they are not? Afterall, if you are deceived, how do you know you are deceived?

    What if nobody ever speaks out for fear of offending them and so they go to hell without being warned they weren't where they thought they were because they were listening to the wrong voices? I know for me--someone who was on the wrong side of that religious system being led by blind guides (who couldn't recognize life, themselves, because they themselves never experienced it) for most of my life--I would want to be placed in a position that drove me to question the truth before I ended up in hell. If my focus is not to offend--even to the point of leading them right to the gates of hell--how could I live with myself, let alone a God who reached out to me and freed me from those very lies?

    The evidence of our actions speaks about what we truly believe. How could we have that healthy fear (respect) for God and simultaneously question His character if He does something we don't understand? We can't. You either revere Him (a true believer) or you don't (an unbeliever or tare). Someone who has a real relationship with Him would never ever consider Him a monster. People who jump to junk like that, how do they deal with God telling Abraham to send away a son and offer another for sacrifice? They can't. They have to make the Old Testament God and the New Testament God two different entities; BUT, He is the same God! There is no inconsistency.
     
  17. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    A 'barb' is when you characterize a person, instead of an action. If you can locate any barbs from me, PLEASE TELL ME SO I CAN REPENT!

    Please.

    Of course most that would call God a monster are non believers! Of course.

    But directly calling an individual a fool instead of simply the class of all who deny God is judging that person, which we are directly told not to do, but even worse, we have a 2nd huge warning --

    Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

    So, I'd urgently warn everyone (not just you) to simply refrain from judging a person as a person (instead of judging an action which is okay to do), and calling an individual a fool (instead of simply quoting the verse, which speaks for itself).
     
  18. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Exactly. An excellent and helpful summary. Thanks!
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Define "God". Define "monster".

    What "God" would that be?

    The god of suicide bomber Muslims?

    The god of Dante's inferno?

    The god of Calvinistic double predestination?

    The god that told the Jews to sacrifice their children in fire?

    Are any of those termed "god" a "monster" according to Scripture?
     
  20. Tayla

    Tayla Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes of course.
     
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