One's salvation can be lost

[Hentenza]

I do know context the point of my entry that there is only one faith that matters... not these others that only come from a head knowledge of understanding... and if you really look at these other faiths that refer to believing they actually refer to a lacking of faith... there is only one faith that matters and that is the one which converts ones heart...

I don't disagree with you. My comment regarding context is that the verse teaches that all is for Christ not that there is literally only one faith or one baptism. There are more than one baptism taught in scripture so the verse is not literally teaching that there is only one baptism but that one that is in Christ. The Jews also used baptism during the time of Christ but their baptist was not for Christ.

 

[Arcoe]

Really? So Jesus is not explicitly teaching the different kinds of faith? The verses are plain Arcoe. No need for fancy interpretations.

No He is not. As someone has already pointed out, Paul said there was ONE faith. Calvinists want us to believe there are more. Who is telling the truth, and why would the other want me to believe their way? Sorry, I take Paul over you.

So you deny that even today there are both wheats and tares sitting in your church's pews?

No, I do not deny it. The one who believes in Jesus' parable wasn't planted by the wicked one. The seed planted in his heart was the word of God, and planted by Jesus Himself.

You need to believe scripture and since scripture include the words of Christ then you should read them carefully.

I do believe when Jesus said the ones who fell away, believed beforehand. Do you believe this?

lol And you still can't explain how God can be a necessary being and a contingent being at the same time.

Will I perish if I don't answer this superfluous question?

The rest of your post is nothing but an emotive reaction. No need to address it.

God bless you!

 

[Arcoe]

I don't believe many of us here are professed or practicing Calvinists, even though some of our beliefs lean that way. I do know we are alll saved by God's grace and mercy, and we all love The Lord. Maybe you see things that we don't see, and we see things that you don't see. I can say the belief in perseverance of the saints did not come easily to me, I was persuaded of it, and cannot find a resaon to undo what has been done.

My time here has been short, I already like and respect you. You have a gentleness that comes from following The Master and sitting humbly at His feet. I hope we can all learn from one another, I am certainly not perfect, I am not a big fan of confrontation and agitation amongst the brethren, but IMVHO we should expect protocol and systematic discourse, and not allow ourselves to degenerate into silliness. Like Barnabbas we should edify and encourage, and the rebuke should be the exception and not the norm.

Thank you. You have a very Christ-like attitude and I, for one, do appreciate it.

 

[Hentenza]

Arcoe,

You're wasting your time. In the other discussion there were saved unbelievers and saved followers of Satan.

Bearing false witness is not viewed kindly in scripture.

 

[Hentenza]

No He is not. As someone has already pointed out, Paul said there was ONE faith. Calvinists want us to believe there are more. Who is telling the truth, and why would the other want me to believe their way? Sorry, I take Paul over you.

I've addressed that post.

I'll ask the same question to you that I asked him. Is there more than one type baptism taught in scripture?

No, I do not deny it. The one who believes in Jesus' parable wasn't planted by the wicked one. The seed planted in his heart was the word of God, and planted by Jesus Himself.

Changing goal posts now Arcoe? Typical.

I do believe when Jesus said the ones who fell away, believed beforehand. Do you believe this?

Sure, they had nominal faith not saving faith.

Will I perish if I don't answer this superfluous question?

Knowing God's attributes might help you determine the answer to your question, however, since salvation is by faith and since you identify as one with faith then, no, your salvation is assured.

God bless you!

God bless you too.

 

[Arcoe]

I was busy singing Kumbaya and forgot my question...
Can we attain through obedience (by grace) a condition where we are secure ? And can this be maintained ? This is not a trick question. There has to be something here that some of us are simply not seeing. I do not believe anyone is deliberately being obstinate and I would never say anyone is obtuse, but several posters keep referring to Ezekiel 18. I would be curious if Jesus made a reference to this passage ?

Several verses come to mind.

Jeremiah 38:20 But Jeremiah said, “They shall not deliver you. Please, obey the voice of the Lord which I speak to you. So it shall be well with you, and your soul shall live.

Ezekiel 20:8 But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, ‘I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’

Romans 2:8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,


Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Notice in Romans 10:16, Paul equates believing with obeying. The assurance comes from Hebrews 5:9, which states Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to ALL WHO OBEY HIM.



Jesus did not make a direct reference to Ezekiel 18:31, but did tell us the same thing in Matthew 23:26, "Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also".

I guess if anyone thinks he is better than the Pharisees, he probably wouldn't have to cleanse that which is within the cup.

 

[jasonsloss]

Let's see just how plainly you read it.

This is taken from the Canons of Dordt, Rejection of Errors, no.1 -

"As Scripture says, I have revealed your name to those whom you gave me (John 17:6). Likewise, All who were appointed for eternal life believed (Acts 13:48)."

If a person 'knows' or has a knowledge of Christ, then the above states it was revealed to those whom God gave Christ.

Also, ALL who were appointed for eternal life believed. Luke 8:13 states, "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away".

If all appointed to eternal life believe, how is it that Jesus says those on rocky soil are those who believe for a while and then fall away? Were these who believed not appointed for eternal life?

Arcoe do you believe you can lose your salvation? i ask because I want to be sure I am reading your post right..

 

[Arcoe]

As I have been explaining for a few posts now, there are 2 types of faith. Those that merely mentally assented but no change in their lives have occurred and those with saving faith. Matthew 7 explains that some will prophesy in Jesus name and still Jesus will tell them that He does not know them.

Why does Jesus say He does not know them? Care to venture a guess?

Matthew 7:23 -
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Notice He did not say, 'ye that have nominal faith'.

Even the demons believe, another scripture tell us. Do you think that demons are saved since Jesus explicitly said that even they believe?

In context, we see simply believing will not save a person, as James states, for even the devils believe.

James 2 -
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

It takes believing and works of love to be saved. The devils do not have works of love with their believing. James goes so far as to call those with faith only, foolish men.

I will ask you the same question James asked. What does it profit you if you say you have faith and do not have works? Can faith save you?

 

[drstevej]

Ascentia and Fiducia

Two words are worth introducing here: ascentia and fiducia. Ascentia is the mental assent, the mental acknowledgment of something's existence. The demons acknowledge and believe that God exists. Fiducia is more than mental acknowledgment. It involves a trust in something, a giving over to it, a complete believing and acceptance of something. This is the kind of faith that a Christian has in Christ.

 

[jasonsloss]

Well any scripture can be interpreted to teach anything , but the doctrine of eternal security is clearly taught in scripture over and over , what you are dealing with is outward reform , some get as far and no farther that's Lots wife !

just to clarify one thing scripture is already interpreted by God... we do not interpret anything but we do apply the scriptures to our lives... the mistake is sometimes we try to apply the wrong scripture to our lives which leads us into a misunderstanding and misuse of God's word...

 

[drstevej]

just to clarify one thing scripture is already interpreted by God... we do not interpret anything but we do apply the scriptures to our lives...

Please explain.

 

[jasonsloss]

And you will never find elect and salvation in the same verse.

2 Timothy 2:10 NKJV
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[jasonsloss]

Scripture says we are chosen for salvation and some Christians openly say this is FALSE !

scripture also says God desires all men to be saved... 1 Timothy 2:3-4... 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.... but we know all men won't be saved right???

 

[jasonsloss]

Ascentia and Fiducia

Two words are worth introducing here: ascentia and fiducia. Ascentia is the mental assent, the mental acknowledgment of something's existence. The demons acknowledge and believe that God exists. Fiducia is more than mental acknowledgment. It involves a trust in something, a giving over to it, a complete believing and acceptance of something. This is the kind of faith that a Christian has in Christ.

Pistis
conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it relating to God the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ relating to Christ a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God the religious beliefs of Christians belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same fidelity, faithfulness the character of one who can be relied on... dont know what words you have or where you got them, but this is the biblical word for saving faith....

 

[jasonsloss]

god has given us His interpretation of what He has wanted us to learn and now we are to take God's teachings and apply them to our lives... to do this we don't interpret the scripture we study to find the meaning and how it affects us... the danger is to try to apply scripture to ones life that has no application... number 1 rule of thumb is scripture will interpret scripture no need to through our messed up thoughts into it...

 

[drstevej]

interpretation = meaning

 

[jasonsloss]

God has given us His meaning of His words

 

[Arcoe]

Ascentia and Fiducia

Two words are worth introducing here: ascentia and fiducia. Ascentia is the mental assent, the mental acknowledgment of something's existence. The demons acknowledge and believe that God exists. Fiducia is more than mental acknowledgment. It involves a trust in something, a giving over to it, a complete believing and acceptance of something. This is the kind of faith that a Christian has in Christ.

Thank you for that lesson. However, the word used for 'believe' in Luke 8:13 is pisteuō, which means 'to think is true', 'to be persuaded of', and 'to place confidence in'. This is the word used for the one whose seed fell upon the rocks.

Now, the word used of devils believing is, let's see, wee doggie, look at that Jethro, it's the very same word.

It's the very same word Paul used in 2 Timothy 1:12 of himself.

 

[Arcoe]

2 Timothy 2:10 NKJV
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Thank you Jason; I stand corrected.

 

[Butch5]

Bearing false witness is not viewed kindly in scripture.

There's no false witness.

Hentenza---The verse makes NO, ZERO, NADA, statement that those who believe now and stop believing lost their eternal life.

Hentenza---Butch, many Christians stop believing at times with many leaving the faith completely for a period of time and then returning. You are assuming that those that stop believing stop forever. The tense is present because of the same reason. I choose to believe scripture when it teaches that:

Post 628

Doesn't that equal a saved unbeliever?

Henteza---4. Paul explains the result of those believers that continue to follow satan in 1 Cor 5, "5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." The clear teaching is that satan will destroy their flesh (physical) but that their spirit may still be saved in the day of the lord Jesus. Paul could not have stated this if salvation was dependent on our works. Secondly, Paul explains the judgment of the believer in 1 Cor. 3. Our bad works are burned up but the person is still saved.

Post 556

Believers that follow Satan? Isn't that Saved followers of Satan?