One's salvation can be lost

[janxharris]

Again, where does Dort says that those appointed are the same as those listed in Luke 8 as planting their seeds on rocky or thorny soil? Where does it say that those with nominal faith were appointed for eternal life?

Those that God "appoints" to eternal life will attain eternal life by necessity. Also, even the demons believe. What do you think that means?

It says in Luke that they believed.

 

[bottomofsandal]

I care not what Calvinism teaches. I find it more inventive than Thomas Edison. I do know what is brought out from Calvinists on this board. That is all I need to know about it. I can never have faith in a system which cannot, nor will not, take the passages from the word and believe them as they are presented (this is true nominal faith).

I have given passages from Ezekiel and James which, not one Calvinist will believe what it says. Why would I will myself to trust a belief system which will not hear, understand, apply, and obey the truths in God's word?

I don't believe many of us here are professed or practicing Calvinists, even though some of our beliefs lean that way. I do know we are alll saved by God's grace and mercy, and we all love The Lord. Maybe you see things that we don't see, and we see things that you don't see. I can say the belief in perseverance of the saints did not come easily to me, I was persuaded of it, and cannot find a resaon to undo what has been done.

To prove what I am saying, I will ask you this:

Do you believe, understand, and obey the words of Ezekiel 18:31? Have you cast away your transgressions to make yourself a new heart and new spirit? A yes or no will suffice.

As one who trusts and believes the truths God has given us, I can say yes without any reservations. Can you do the same?

My time here has been short, I already like and respect you. You have a gentleness that comes from following The Master and sitting humbly at His feet. I hope we can all learn from one another, I am certainly not perfect, I am not a big fan of confrontation and agitation amongst the brethren, but IMVHO we should expect protocol and systematic discourse, and not allow ourselves to degenerate into silliness. Like Barnabbas we should edify and encourage, and the rebuke should be the exception and not the norm.

 

[DeaconDean]

Do you believe, understand, and obey the words of Ezekiel 18:31?

I do know that context plays a huge part in ones understanding and in the context, this is addressed to Israel of Ezekiel's time.

Three primary rules of correct biblical hermenutics:

1. Context
2. Context
3. Context.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[jasonsloss]

Losing one's salvation would be a sad thing...why isn't that possible? These scriptures and others can certainly be interpreted to mean as much.

yes you are right in what you say but this is why we are to read and study scripture in context and not to take one scripture and say this is what it means... scripture has already been interpreted by God it is not for us to through our to cents in... we are to learn God's interpretation and apply it to our lives...

 

[bottomofsandal]

Do you believe, understand, and obey the words of Ezekiel 18:31? Have you cast away your transgressions to make yourself a new heart and new spirit? A yes or no will suffice.

As one who trusts and believes the truths God has given us, I can say yes without any reservations. Can you do the same?

I was busy singing Kumbaya and forgot my question...


Can we attain through obedience (by grace) a condition where we are secure ? And can this be maintained ? This is not a trick question. There has to be something here that some of us are simply not seeing. I do not believe anyone is deliberately being obstinate and I would never say anyone is obtuse, but several posters keep referring to Ezekiel 18. I would be curious if Jesus made a reference to this passage ?

 

[Hentenza]

Let's see, false prophets, who denied the Master (Jesus) who bought them, who knew the truth but maligned it, who escaped the corruption in the world, and finally, knew Jesus.

Yep, that sounds like an elect person to me. As the elect, were you bought by the Master, know the truth, escaped the corruption in the world, and finally, know Jesus? Or, are these just qualities of a false prophet?

Hey, while we are at it you can also add Simon the sorcerer to your list. He was even baptized.

 

[Hentenza]

You are interpreting theses passages according to your beliefs. You should really let the words of Jesus speak for themselves without interjecting your flavor of belief.

Really? So Jesus is not explicitly teaching the different kinds of faith? The verses are plain Arcoe. No need for fancy interpretations.

If Jesus said they believed, then without a doubt, they believed. Nothing is even remotely suggesting believing in name only. This is your interjection. You can't add to the Bible to make it say what you want. You will never come to the full truth that way. You must take what is said and believe it (and not with a nominal faith).

So you deny that even today there are both wheats and tares sitting in your church's pews?

So, I ask, do I believe Jesus when He said they believe, or do I trust your interpretation with interjected words?

You need to believe scripture and since scripture include the words of Christ then you should read them carefully.

The word nominal is a theological term invented by man. Because if a man believed and fell away, it would destroy your doctrine. And Calvinists can't have that. They must cleverly invent some other meaning than what is actually taught.

lol And you still can't explain how God can be a necessary being and a contingent being at the same time.

The rest of your post is nothing but an emotive reaction. No need to address it.

 

[jasonsloss]

I accept that the chapter is about false prophets.

And my question?
To suggest that those described in 2 Peter 2:20 are not really true believers is untenable - Calvinists use 1 Corinthians 2:14 to argue that only the regenerate can turn to God.

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Are you suggesting that 'escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ' is different to 'accept the things that come from the Spirit of God...and...understand them...'?

okay you are trying to compare apples and oranges here because what Peter says is referring they had come to understand that choosing Christ is the only way to abtain salvation but they themselves never did in another words they only had a head knowledge of what a it took to become a believer... now what Paul teaches is what the Spirit of God teaches us after conversion of an unbeliever, you have to have the Holy Spirit to be able to walk this knew life...

 

[Butch5]

2 Peter 2:20,21
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

That's what it's teaching!

 

[Butch5]

So we should edit John 3:16.


"Those who believe in me might not perish but perhaps have everlasting life, if they make it."

But doesn't it say "might"?

 

[jasonsloss]

You are interpreting theses passages according to your beliefs. You should really let the words of Jesus speak for themselves without interjecting your flavor of belief.

If Jesus said they believed, then without a doubt, they believed. Nothing is even remotely suggesting believing in name only. This is your interjection. You can't add to the Bible to make it say what you want. You will never come to the full truth that way. You must take what is said and believe it (and not with a nominal faith).

So, I ask, do I believe Jesus when He said they believe, or do I trust your interpretation with interjected words?



The word nominal is a theological term invented by man. Because if a man believed and fell away, it would destroy your doctrine. And Calvinists can't have that. They must cleverly invent some other meaning than what is actually taught.



I care not what Calvinism teaches. I find it more inventive than Thomas Edison. I do know what is brought out from Calvinists on this board. That is all I need to know about it. I can never have faith in a system which cannot, nor will not, take the passages from the word and believe them as they are presented (this is true nominal faith).

I have given passages from Ezekiel and James which, not one Calvinist will believe what it says. Why would I will myself to trust a belief system which will not hear, understand, apply, and obey the truths in God's word?

To prove what I am saying, I will ask you this:

Do you believe, understand, and obey the words of Ezekiel 18:31? Have you cast away your transgressions to make yourself a new heart and new spirit? A yes or no will suffice.

As one who trusts and believes the truths God has given us, I can say yes without any reservations. Can you do the same?

you guys go look up the the word belief or believed there you will see what they are defined and one is only the true believing leading to salvation..

 

[Hentenza]

It says in Luke that they believed.

As I have been explaining for a few posts now, there are 2 types of faith. Those that merely mentally assented but no change in their lives have occurred and those with saving faith. Matthew 7 explains that some will prophesy in Jesus name and still Jesus will tell them that He does not know them. Even the demons believe, another scripture tell us. Do you think that demons are saved since Jesus explicitly said that even they believe?

 

[Hentenza]

That's what it's teaching!

We've been through this already Butch. That is not what this verse teaches.

 

[jasonsloss]

As I have been explaining for a few posts now, there are 2 types of faith. Those that merely mentally assented but no change in their lives have occurred and those with saving faith. Matthew 7 explains that some will prophesy in Jesus name and still Jesus will tell them that He does not know them. Even the demons believe, another scripture tell us. Do you think that demons are saved since Jesus explicitly said that even they believe?

bible does not teach two types of Faith it teaches only one... Ephesians 4:5 NAS
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

 

[Hentenza]

bible does not teach two types of Faith it teaches only one... Ephesians 4:5 NAS
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Learn context before answering. Thanks.

BTW- Is there a baptism of water and a baptism of the Spirit taught in scripture?

 

[jasonsloss]

I do know context the point of my entry that there is only one faith that matters... not these others that only come from a head knowledge of understanding... and if you really look at these other faiths that refer to believing they actually refer to a lacking of faith... there is only one faith that matters and that is the one which converts ones heart...

 

[Arcoe]

I do know that context plays a huge part in ones understanding and in the context, this is addressed to Israel of Ezekiel's time.

Three primary rules of correct biblical hermenutics:

1. Context
2. Context
3. Context.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I agree with you Deacon; however, these two verses were addressed to Israel also, from the same book.

Ezekiel 11:19 And I have given to them one heart, And a new spirit I do give in your midst, And I have turned the heart of stone out of their flesh, And I have given to them a heart of flesh.


Ezekiel 36:26 And I have given to you a new heart, And a new spirit I give in your midst, And I have turned aside the heart of stone out of your flesh, And I have given to you a heart of flesh.

I do not hear anyone saying this isn't for us; it was also written to Israel.

 

[Arcoe]

Hey, while we are at it you can also add Simon the sorcerer to your list. He was even baptized.

Yes sir, another Calvinist reprobate who believed.

 

[Hentenza]

Yes sir, another Calvinist reprobate who believed.

lol Not.

 

[Butch5]

Let's see, false prophets, who denied the Master (Jesus) who bought them, who knew the truth but maligned it, who escaped the corruption in the world, and finally, knew Jesus.

Yep, that sounds like an elect person to me. As the elect, were you bought by the Master, know the truth, escaped the corruption in the world, and finally, know Jesus? Or, are these just qualities of a false prophet?

Arcoe,

You're wasting your time. In the other discussion there were saved unbelievers and saved followers of Satan.