One Hundred Different Doctrines of Salvation

BibleBeliever1611

Active Member
May 3, 2020
391
182
28
Vantaa
✟80,648.00
Country
Finland
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Many people teach that once a person is saved, they must turn from sins and begin to live a holy life as a result of salvation. They say that you don't need to be perfect, but you must at least turn from some of your sins because God made you a new creature.

But here's the problem with this. Whenever you ask "How much?", they never give a clear answer. And now you could have all kinds of different degrees and types of this teaching. For example, imagine that a drunkard gets saved. Now the question is, how much does he need to turn from the sin of drinking alcohol if he is truly saved and a new creature in Christ? He could decrease his drinking by 1%. Some people would probably say that that's not enough. There needs to be more evidence of salvation. So he might decrease his drinking by 10%. Or maybe he needs to decrease it by 11%, 12%, 13%, etc. You get the idea. So now there are literally one hundred different versions of this doctrine. The extreme from of this doctrine would say that the person must decrease his drinking by 99.99% or otherwise he didn't truly get saved. But he doesn't need to be perfect, because he still has that 0.01% of his old sinful habits in his life. Maybe he still drinks alcohol once in five years.

Can you see how bizarre and weird and stupid this is? Why can't the gospel be simple?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Rajni

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,124
9,946
The Void!
✟1,125,860.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Many people teach that once a person is saved, they must turn from sins and begin to live a holy life as a result of salvation. They say that you don't need to be perfect, but you must at least turn from some of your sins because God made you a new creature.

But here's the problem with this. Whenever you ask "How much?", they never give a clear answer. And now you could have all kinds of different degrees and types of this teaching. For example, imagine that a drunkard gets saved. Now the question is, how much does he need to turn from the sin of drinking alcohol if he is truly saved and a new creature in Christ? He could decrease his drinking by 1%. Some people would probably say that that's not enough. There needs to be more evidence of salvation. So he might decrease his drinking by 10%. Or maybe he needs to decrease it by 11%, 12%, 13%, etc. You get the idea. So now there are literally one hundred different versions of this doctrine. The extreme from of this doctrine would say that the person must decrease his drinking by 99.99% or otherwise he didn't truly get saved. But he doesn't need to be perfect, because he still has that 0.01% of his old sinful habits in his life. Maybe he still drinks alcohol once in five years.

Can you see how bizarre and weird and stupid this is? Why can't the gospel be simple?

Maybe because the reality God put us into is complex? :dontcare:
 
Upvote 0

Dave G.

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
4,629
5,307
73
Sandiwich
✟314,303.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
The Gospel is simple. Justification is simple. Sanctification is a lifetime of changes. But really even that is us responding to the Spirit. It gets difficult when we create our own works program. Put your cares before God and let Him work out your plan. Then just follow it.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel9v9

Christian Forums Staff
Chaplain
Supporter
Jun 5, 2016
1,928
1,714
38
London
Visit site
✟393,838.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
This is regrettably caused by a confusion of Justification and Sanctification, which many, if not most, theological systems do not keep a clear distinction of.

Simply, we are justified - declared righteous before God - by His unmerited grace, because of the person and works of Jesus Christ. This is brought to us by the Holy Spirit. We are spiritually dead, and God makes us alive in Christ. We do not work for it, seek it, want it, nor do we sustain it. Because we are by nature children of wrath and enemies of God. God loves us first, then we love Him back.

Upon justification, sanctification follows. This is the gradual process of becoming Christ-like. It is the work and fruit of the Holy Spirit in us, and our good works. Here we do contribute by means of prayer, seeking God, and holiness of living, though we learn this from God's Word and following His example. Sanctification, or holiness and good works, do follow justification, but they do not sustain nor precede justification.

This is why we can say: (1) Salvation, from beginning and end, is entirely from God. We add nothing. And (2) We must live holy lives and do good works in accordance with God's Word and by the help of the Holy Spirit. But this does not have any bearing on salvation. God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbour does.
 
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why can't the gospel be simple?

It can't be simple bcause it is hard for us to allow our selves to do nothing to obtain the gift of God. So we ask, like you have, how much must I give up, what else do I need to do.... what should I do after?

It is hard to stand still and see the salvation of the lord. We must understand it, do something about it, and help out.

Therefore, it cannot be simple.
 
Upvote 0

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
79
Southern Ga.
✟157,715.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
For example, imagine that a drunkard gets saved. Now the question is, how much does he need to turn from the sin of drinking alcohol if he is truly saved and a new creature in Christ?

There is only one problem with your question.

In order for your question to be valid, you have to ask the very same question about every single sinner and their particular sin.

By so doing you will then understand, man can do nothing to stop sinning, it is in his nature to sin, inherited from Adam.

How many fewer Rapes, Murders, Thefts, you get the picture.

Man does not and cannot stop sinning, that is the reason Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh.

Rom 8:3,4
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Therefore you can see, the purpose Jesus came was to Destroy Sin which dwells in our Flesh, (Human Nature), sin is removed by Jesus from any man who Believes on Him as Savior, this fact is verified by John.

1Jn 3:9,10
9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:

Not only so, but Paul says.

Rom 6:2-4
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Therefore you can clearly see, Jesus not only Destroyed Sin in the Flesh of Man, We are also Dead to that flesh in which we walked (The Old Man) once we are IN Christ, through Baptism.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So then, it isn't to what % or to what degree a Believer in Christ stops his sin, he has died to sin, sin in the Flesh of Man has been Destroyed by Jesus and the Believer Cannot sin.

Getting back to your question.

No Christian should ever judge his Brother especially according to his standards of what constitutes a Christian.

Rom. 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,696
5,613
Utah
✟713,367.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Many people teach that once a person is saved, they must turn from sins and begin to live a holy life as a result of salvation. They say that you don't need to be perfect, but you must at least turn from some of your sins because God made you a new creature.

But here's the problem with this. Whenever you ask "How much?", they never give a clear answer. And now you could have all kinds of different degrees and types of this teaching. For example, imagine that a drunkard gets saved. Now the question is, how much does he need to turn from the sin of drinking alcohol if he is truly saved and a new creature in Christ? He could decrease his drinking by 1%. Some people would probably say that that's not enough. There needs to be more evidence of salvation. So he might decrease his drinking by 10%. Or maybe he needs to decrease it by 11%, 12%, 13%, etc. You get the idea. So now there are literally one hundred different versions of this doctrine. The extreme from of this doctrine would say that the person must decrease his drinking by 99.99% or otherwise he didn't truly get saved. But he doesn't need to be perfect, because he still has that 0.01% of his old sinful habits in his life. Maybe he still drinks alcohol once in five years.

Can you see how bizarre and weird and stupid this is? Why can't the gospel be simple?

The gospel isn't simple ... because God isn't simple.

What IF God made it simple ...

Suppose this was the only verse you had to go by?

Matthew 5:48

English Standard Version
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
 
Upvote 0

BibleBeliever1611

Active Member
May 3, 2020
391
182
28
Vantaa
✟80,648.00
Country
Finland
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The gospel isn't simple ... because God isn't simple.

What IF God made it simple ...

Suppose this was the only verse you had to go by?

Matthew 5:48

English Standard Version
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The Bible teaches that there is simplicity in being in Christ (in other words, being saved).

2 Corinthians 11:3:
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Furthermore, the Bible calls the gospel "the gospel of peace." How can you have peace if you need to worry about your lifestyle? Worries and doubts are the opposite of peace.

Romans 10:15:
"And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BibleBeliever1611

Active Member
May 3, 2020
391
182
28
Vantaa
✟80,648.00
Country
Finland
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Christians should never be asking: "How bad can I be"? But what good can I be doing in the next 30 minutes to please God?

However, the question should never be this: "What good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Many people teach that once a person is saved, they must turn from sins and begin to live a holy life as a result of salvation. They say that you don't need to be perfect, but you must at least turn from some of your sins because God made you a new creature.

But here's the problem with this. Whenever you ask "How much?", they never give a clear answer. And now you could have all kinds of different degrees and types of this teaching. For example, imagine that a drunkard gets saved. Now the question is, how much does he need to turn from the sin of drinking alcohol if he is truly saved and a new creature in Christ? He could decrease his drinking by 1%. Some people would probably say that that's not enough. There needs to be more evidence of salvation. So he might decrease his drinking by 10%. Or maybe he needs to decrease it by 11%, 12%, 13%, etc. You get the idea. So now there are literally one hundred different versions of this doctrine. The extreme from of this doctrine would say that the person must decrease his drinking by 99.99% or otherwise he didn't truly get saved. But he doesn't need to be perfect, because he still has that 0.01% of his old sinful habits in his life. Maybe he still drinks alcohol once in five years.

Can you see how bizarre and weird and stupid this is? Why can't the gospel be simple?

Well, we are saved by God's grace and Sanctification (See: John 5:24, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and James 2:24).

Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue because even the servant who was faithful over a little was told to enter the joy of His Lord in the parable of the Talents in Matthew 25. Yet, in that same parable, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. Therefore, we do need to meet the bare minimum requirement of living holy by the power of God working in us.

1 John 5:16-17 talks about how there is a sin that does not lead unto death. While the chapter is referring to confessed sin to be forgiven of such sin and to overcome it with the prayers of his fellow believers, I believe sins unto death can extend to other minor transgressions or faults (like not being baptized in this life, or like when Paul disobeyed the Spirit in going to Jerusalem).

Sins unto death are sins that lead to the second death (i.e. the Lake of Fire). These sins would be the type of sins that the Bible mentions that are attached with warnings of condemnation and hellfire, etc.; This would be like: murder, lyng, hating, adultery, fornication, theft, idolatry, etc.

You also want confirmation bias of things in order to believe it. You want to see believers living holy in order to believe in such a doctrine that the Bible plainly teaches. But faith does not work like that. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (See: Hebrews 11:1).

I mean, do you think that maybe the unrighteous wicked people during the global flood may have taunted Noah (a preacher of righteousness) that nobody could live holy or righteous at that time, too? After all, only Noah and his family were spared. Yet, the whole world was wicked at that time and they perished on the account of their wickedness (See: 2 Peter 2:6-7). It is quite possible that the wicked men who listened to Noah preach about righteousness may have mocked him by saying that they do not know of any neighbor who lives righteously.

Jesus talked about how it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man. Meaning, 2 Timothy 3:1-9. It's happening right now. But many believers appear to not see what this passage says (Among many other passages).

I mean, have you ever considered that Matthew 13:41-42 is a warning to believers being punished in hell fire if they live unholy and or if they justify sin?

In Matthew 13:41-42, Jesus said that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth His angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend (i.e. to make to stumble or sin) and those who work lawlessness or iniquity, and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire)?

I mean, why on Earth would Jesus warn us against how sin can destroy our soul in hell fire if such a thing was not possible? (See: Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said if you don't forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Stop and think. Your belief is not consistent with the whole counsel of God's Word. The Bible condemns Belief Alone-ism. For James says that faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
However, the question should never be this: "What good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

While we are initially and ultimately (foundationally) saved by God's grace, we also need to enter Sanctification as a part of the salvation process (after we are saved by God's grace). For...

  1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

  2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

  3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

  4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).

  5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

  6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).

  7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).

  8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).

  9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

  10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).

  11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).

  12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Many people teach that once a person is saved, they must turn from sins and begin to live a holy life as a result of salvation. They say that you don't need to be perfect, but you must at least turn from some of your sins because God made you a new creature.

But here's the problem with this...
Can you see how bizarre and weird and stupid this is? Why can't the gospel be simple?
The good news (no pun intended) is that it is simple. But some people seem not to like simple. They prefer to complicate things with their own feelings/opinions/etc.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
While we are initially and ultimately (foundationally) saved by God's grace, we also need to enter Sanctification as a part of the salvation process (after we are saved by God's grace). For...
Hold on a sec. Salvation is NOT a "process" as you presume. It is complete the MOMENT one believes. John 5:24 and 6:47 both say that believers possess (present tense) eternal life. Eternal life is ONLY for saved people. No unsaved person can possess eternal life.
We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
This verse speaks of both God's and man's perspective. James' point is that one's faith can only be seen by their works. God doesn't need "evidence" for faith. He is omniscient.

Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Context clearly shows what James was concerned about; being charged with hypocrisy based on one's deeds. v.1-2, or lack of deeds in v.15,16.

A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
There are 2 kinds of inheritance. Romans 8:17 refers to both. When eternal life is inherited, that refers to reward based on deeds/works/behavior.

Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
Again, inheriting the kingdom refers to reward. And Matt 25 refers to unbelievers.

Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
All sin is "not of God". So, what's your point?

Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
To "abide in Jesus" is to be IN fellowship with Him. It's not about relationship, but fellowship, cooperation, etc.

If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
This doesn't say anything about works being necessary for salvation.

Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).
To "see the Lord" can refer to 2 things.

1. It can refer to the epistle's eschatological concerns (Christ's return is mentioned in (9:28 and 10:37). So, "seeing the Lord" refers to looking forward to that future moment that completes the sanctification process when each believer will see the Lord face to face and be like Him. However, this places salvation upon pursuing holiness. That is a work or deed, and does NOT result in salvation, which is by faith, apart from works. Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5.

2. It refers to those in the sphere of the believer who doesn't pursue holiness. Those people will NOT see Christ-likeness in the believer. Or, they won't "see the Lord" in such a believer. This makes much more sense. But those who grasp tightly to their agenda about losing salvation, it won't make any sense to them.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,116
7,243
Dallas
✟873,893.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Many people teach that once a person is saved, they must turn from sins and begin to live a holy life as a result of salvation. They say that you don't need to be perfect, but you must at least turn from some of your sins because God made you a new creature.

But here's the problem with this. Whenever you ask "How much?", they never give a clear answer. And now you could have all kinds of different degrees and types of this teaching. For example, imagine that a drunkard gets saved. Now the question is, how much does he need to turn from the sin of drinking alcohol if he is truly saved and a new creature in Christ? He could decrease his drinking by 1%. Some people would probably say that that's not enough. There needs to be more evidence of salvation. So he might decrease his drinking by 10%. Or maybe he needs to decrease it by 11%, 12%, 13%, etc. You get the idea. So now there are literally one hundred different versions of this doctrine. The extreme from of this doctrine would say that the person must decrease his drinking by 99.99% or otherwise he didn't truly get saved. But he doesn't need to be perfect, because he still has that 0.01% of his old sinful habits in his life. Maybe he still drinks alcohol once in five years.

Can you see how bizarre and weird and stupid this is? Why can't the gospel be simple?

No one can give an answer to that question because they will not be the one to judge people on judgement day. Matthew 7:21-27 is a prime example that a certain level of obedience is required for salvation. Only God knows how much. It’s not even about how you lived your life but instead where your at in the end of you life. A person could’ve repented 10 years ago or 10 minutes ago and both will be just as equally saved. Salvation is not about refraining from sin or doing good works, it’s about having love for God and love for others. If a person has this love then the rest will fall in place by itself. If you love Jesus you will keep His commandments. Sure no one will be perfect and God knew that which is why Christ died on the cross. Ultimately we will all stand before Him and He will either acknowledge us before The Father or condemn us to the lake of fire.
 
Upvote 0

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,278
4,680
68
Tolworth
✟369,559.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why can't the gospel be simple

Ultimately the gospel is simple.

Repent of your sins ( that is change how you live ) ask Jesus to save you and go tell others.

We make it completed by trying to find loopholes, shortcuts and cheats to make our lives easier.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HisCrossMyPeace

Active Member
Jul 6, 2020
107
124
Western Norway
✟36,009.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Many people teach that once a person is saved, they must turn from sins and begin to live a holy life as a result of salvation. They say that you don't need to be perfect, but you must at least turn from some of your sins because God made you a new creature.

But here's the problem with this. Whenever you ask "How much?", they never give a clear answer. And now you could have all kinds of different degrees and types of this teaching. For example, imagine that a drunkard gets saved. Now the question is, how much does he need to turn from the sin of drinking alcohol if he is truly saved and a new creature in Christ? He could decrease his drinking by 1%. Some people would probably say that that's not enough. There needs to be more evidence of salvation. So he might decrease his drinking by 10%. Or maybe he needs to decrease it by 11%, 12%, 13%, etc. You get the idea. So now there are literally one hundred different versions of this doctrine. The extreme from of this doctrine would say that the person must decrease his drinking by 99.99% or otherwise he didn't truly get saved. But he doesn't need to be perfect, because he still has that 0.01% of his old sinful habits in his life. Maybe he still drinks alcohol once in five years.

Can you see how bizarre and weird and stupid this is? Why can't the gospel be simple?

Dear Finnish brother and neighbour: The gospel is simple. When a person is reborn he get a new nature. He dont't have a new nature only, as he is still in flesh and in this world - and should he forget for some hours, "Old Adam" will quickly remind that HE also is still living and triving! After his rebirth the process "drowning old Adam" starts, and the answer to "how much" is "as much as one by the grace of God and through the Holy Spirit's advice is able to do. The better the new nature is nourished and cared for, an the more "old Adam" is kicked, hitted, ignored and under-nourished by the grace of God, the better results. But have "Old Adam" drowned and dead forever? Yes, one will - exactly that day the Lord is calling the soul home and the body-hut is left and (normally) buried under 6 feet of earth.
 
Upvote 0