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Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by Markwsmith2020, Oct 14, 2017.

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  1. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing hypothetical about either scenario except the use of the name "Bob." And as a Catholic, you know that.
     
  2. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your opinion. However, a deflection, is still a deflection.

    For my third attempt:


    When your group (prayer/bible?) prays for one another, do you consider it as interceding for one another?

    If so, would you agree that the members of your group are acting as co-mediator's between God and other members of your group?


    Why is it then, if it is okay for you and your group, but not okay for Mary or the Saints to do this same thing?


    Do you believe they, (Mary, and all the other Saints in heaven) are part of the Body of Christ?
     
  3. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    I already addressed your false analogy, twice actually. But please feel free to continue spinning in circles if you must.
     
  4. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Ha..Ha.... that's a good one JayW! Not buying it, and pretty sure anyone that can read English is either! Although you declined to answer my questions, I'll go ahead and address your so-called "scenario" post.

    I have a friend in my Parish named "Bob", and have asked him to pray for me many times. Not only him, I also ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, and all the Saints in Heaven to pray for me daily, not just weekly.


    Nope, no statues or stained glass windows of Bob in our church. We do however, honor our patron Saint Vincent de Paul with a statue. We also have stained glass windows in honor of our Blessed Mother, and windows of a dove and tounges of fire depicting the Holy Spirit, along with windows of Jesus, and God the Father. They are quite beautiful!


    Of Bob? Sorry, not happening. Now, as far as candles go in Catholic Churches, there are different types of candles and meanings behind them. For space restraints I'll stick with votive candles. Light stands for Christ, so the burning of candles or lamps, has naturally come to symbolize Christ in a special way (Jn 8:12).

    Something that is "votive" has to do with a vow. God is pleased with our vows, provided we keep them (Mt 5:33, Acts 18:18). A Catholic who lights a votive candle, makes an offering and places an intention before the Lord. The candle symbolizes their intention, it can also stand for their presence in prayer before God, and their union, as a Christian, with Christ the light of the world. The votive element is the exchange of the offering for God's answer to their prayer.

    The practice of lighting candles before the Lord goes back to the Old Testament. God required the Israelites to maintain lamps burning before the Holy of Holies (Ex 40). As you can see JayW, the practice of votive candles has very biblical roots and is very symbolic of who were are as Christians united to Christ, and of our complete dependence upon God in our need. So,if you are mocking Catholics for the lighting of candles.... You are also mocking God! Tisk....tisk!


    To a statue of Bob? Again, not happening. As for the burning of incense. Well, Incense has been used in Christian liturgy from its earliest centuries. In fact, it was a part of the Jewish tradition that came before it, a use that was commanded by God himself and recorded in Sacred Scripture. As in
    Exodus 30:1-10, and Exodus 30:34-38 in the Old Testament, an in Revelation 5:6-8, and Revelation 8:3-4 in the New Testament. So you see JayW, when you see incense being used in our churches, it is meant to remind us Catholics of heaven, and that our worship of God in the Christian liturgy is divine in origin. It also reminds us to pray, and that our prayer rises to God like the smoke from the censer, purifying our worship of God, and allowing his Holy Spirit to work in us to make us holy. So again, if you are mocking Catholics for burning incense in our worship of God, you are mocking Him as well!


    Sarcasm in it's truest form, not worthy of a responce.


    I know what you're getting at, that "gotcha" moment, and it aint going to happen. Lol! FYI, Catholic doctrine absolutely rejects the worship of anyone but God. What the Church does allow is praying to the saints in order to ask for their intercession with the one true God. Not only that....God expects us to pray for one another! We see this in both the Old and New Testaments.---- Gen. 20:7, Job 42:8, Rom.15:30-32, James 5:16-17, to name a few.

    Thank You
     
  5. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I know. They call it "veneration." I can slap a Shelby GT logo on a '73 Pinto, but it's still a Pinto.

    Yes, for one another, not to one another.
     
  6. rturner76

    rturner76 Senior Veteran Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I was reading this thread and I can see there may be some frustration, or if not that, perhaps some tension between the Protestants and Catholics concerning this subject. I likely will not be able to alter many people's perceptions that we pray to Saints and Mother Mary in error or to put it more harshly even a sacrilegious way. I think some of this stems from our individual understanding and use of language. For example, I took the opportunity to look up some synonyms of the word "pray" and this is what I found just in the online dictionary: invoke, call on, implore, appeal to, entreat, beg, petition. If we understand the word "pray" or "prayer" in the context of some of these definitions, we especially as Catholics and perhaps now others can see that prayer is not always worship, similarly worship is not always prayer. We can also sing hymns and make a joyful noise unto the Lord. I hope this prose will serve to bring our ideas closer even if we can't find agreement.
     
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  7. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    You should really look up the definition of a word before you make a.......how did you put it? Oh yeah, "false analogy." Let me help you out.

    The word 'worship' absent.

    And from the Catholic Dictionary:

    Again, the word 'worship' absent. Now speaking of the Veneration of Mary, lets see what the father of your very own Reformation has to say about it.

    Can you tell me when and by whom did this Protestant view on Mary changed? (won't hold my breath for an answer)

    See post #12 on this thread.

    Now JayW, you're fond of the 'Scenario' thing, right? Let me share a couple I found online:


    {Catholic versus the Evangelical approach to a relationship with Jesus}

    Scenario 1: If a guy falls in love with a girl he might say:

    That's how we understand the Evangelical take on a relationship to Jesus.

    Scenario 2: On the other hand he could say:

    We think the second one sounds like a more authentic love. We think that is the Catholic approach to a relationship with Jesus.


    Thank You
     
  8. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    My use of quotation marks was intentional. Perhaps you overlooked that fact.
     
  9. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Oh....you mean like how you overlooked the definition of the word veneration, and the question...."when and by whom did the Protestant view on Mary changed?"

    Thank You
     
  10. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Well, the other poster why replied understood what I was saying (politely disagreed with it, which is fine of course). I’m sorry if you do not. I’ll try to be cleared next time.
     
  11. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Not to be dis-respectful JayW, but maybe you could be a little more clear on this post.

    Also, the question I asked:

    The answer requires a name/names and date/dates.

    Thank you
     
  12. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    To draw from the analogy I used in that post, does calling a '73 Ford Pinto a Shelby GT make it a Shelby GT?

    Yes you did, and while I understand that in some denominations "truth" (quotes again) is derived from the teachings of man -- "So-n-so wrote in the year XXX that ABC is true therefore it is" -- those outside such denominations reject such a premise. The sole infallible documentation of faith is sacred scripture, not the nonscriptural writings of men. As such your question is a non sequitur.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
  13. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Again, more deflection...... No names.... no dates. Why am I not surprised!


    Please show book chapter and verse that says the bible is sufficient as a sole rule of faith? ( i.e. all we need is the bible, nothing more) And the posting of 2 Timothy 3:16–17 not going to do it, for the context of these verses only shows that Scripture is "profitable" (Greek: ophelimos) that is, helpful. Many things can be profitable for moving one toward a goal, without being sufficient in getting one to the goal.
     
  14. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps because you fail to see why your question is a non sequitur to someone outside your denomination?
     
  15. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Lol! It is obvious you are quite fond of the word...."non-sequitur." I can only reason why you find my question absurd (non-sequitur) outside of the Catholic Church is because history is not a friend of your Protestant Denomination. (care to share which one of the thousands it is?) As you well know, Protestant "denominations," founded by mere men, have only been around for the past five hundred or so years, compared to the two thousand plus year old Catholic Church Jesus founded on St. Peter and His successors.

    To quote Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman, a famous Anglican convert to Catholicism in the 19th century: "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant." Which was the case with me after many years of 'church shopping' various Protestant denominations.

    Now as far as "my denomination." The Catholic Church has no denominations. There are however many rites within the Catholic Church (ways of worshiping), and many churches sui iuris (according to the law) — such as:

    the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
    the Melkite Greek-Catholic Church
    the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
    the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
    the Chaldean Catholic Church
    the Coptic Catholic Church, and
    the Armenian Catholic Church

    but we are all united under one head and believe in one common faith, something foreign among the many different Protestant denominations/sects.
     
  16. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    No, it's because, outside certain denominations, Christians do not look to the nonscriptural words of men for their faith. They look the word of God. So quoting the nonscriptural words of men to refute their faith is a non sequitur.

    Care to provide a list of those thousands?
     
  17. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Oh, you mean like the thousands of different Protestant denominations I spoke of?

    Interesting...... You don't consider adherents of the man-made/ nonscriptural doctrine of Sola Scriptura (the bible alone) Christians? I sure do!


    Correct..... As in the written and spoken Word of God!


    Gladly...... but because of space restraints, you will have to do a bit of work on your own.

    First off, I don't know what city you live in, but if you have the phone book/yellow pages, turn to the 'Christian Church' section of the city you live, exclude any Catholic or Orthodox churches, and count whats left, and tell me what the number you come up with. What you will also have to consider JayW, is all the churches that are not listed. Like those churches that hold their service in school gyms, community centers, Halls, private homes, garages, ect. Then, multiply that with all the cities, towns, villages of the world. After you've done that, do you really believe that the numbers would only be in the hundreds?

    If you don't have, or don't know what the phone book/yellow pages are, (not being sarcastic, a lot of people don't, like my g-kids) it can just as easily done online. If you do not wish to put in the time, and you dont mind, tell me the name of the city you live, and I would gladly look it up for you. If you don't feel comfortable giving the name of the city you live, just give me some random city and I'll go from there.

    p.s. couldn't help but notice you didn't give the name of the church your a member of. Care to? If not, why not?

    Thank you in advance.
     
  18. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    So no list of thousands? That’s too bad. I would have enjoyed finally seeing one. Kind of like sasquatch, people keep saying it exists but, meh, not so much.
    For the same reason I’m not going to give you my name, address, phone number, place of employment, or anything else of that nature. I don’t know you, and quite honestly, those things really aren’t your business.
     
  19. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, until you give up your Ostrich imitation, you never will.


    Said the Ostrich.



    I knew it! Thanks JayW, this answer of your's, just won me a home made dinner! Woo-hoo!! :)


    Thank you!
     
  20. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, until you give up your Ostrich imitation, you never will.


    Said the Ostrich.



    I knew it! Thanks JayW, this answer of your's, just won me a home made dinner! Woo-hoo!! :)


    Thank you!
     
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