One, Holy, Catholic, & Apostolic!

[Markwsmith2020]

The Church of Jesus Christ!
One, Holy, Catholic, & Apostolic!

One:

Matt 16:18 I will build my church...
There's one church! and there is one king and one kingdom! Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God..

The body of Christ, Christ has only one body!

The new and eternal covenant!
There is only one covenant and one mediator!
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


Holy:

1 Peter 2:9
A holy nation,
And because her founder was God!
Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord our God!


Catholic: (universal)

John 3:16 for God so loved the world... (Universal)
Matt 28:19 go into the whole world... (Universal)

Progression of the five major covenants!
Adam: marriage covenant:
Noah: family covenant:
Abraham: tribal covenant:
Moses: national covenant:
Jesus Christ: universal covenant:

Apostolic:
Matt 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church... Jesus Christ is the one who builds the church, and on Peter and the Apostles!

Eph 2:20
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets..

The Church, the kingdom of God, the household of faith, the vineyard, the new & eternal covenant!
One, Holy, Catholic, And Apostolic!
Glory to God in the highest!

 

[RC1970]

If only Roman Catholics took 1 Timothy 2:5 to heart and stopped praying to Mary and all of the other Saints.

 

[Markwsmith2020]

We take it to heart and believe it completely! Jesus Christ is the mediator of the new and eternal covenant! Yes! What does that have to do with intercession, or prayer? Does not St. Paul say,
Romans 1:9
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; why does not St. Paul take it to heart, does He not know Jesus is the only mediator? He knows, but anyone can pray! Prayer is not mediation but intercession, just as Esther interceded for the people of Israel before the king,
Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints! Glory to God!

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

If only Roman Catholics took 1 Timothy 2:5 to heart and stopped praying to Mary and all of the other Saints.

and stopped conflating praying 'for' someone with praying 'to' someone.

 

[Markwsmith2020]

I never said to pray to someone, only ask for your prayers, if I am a man, and a husband, and a father what's wrong with daily asking St. Joseph to pray for me, He was all these and a just man, as the good book says: James 5:16 ...The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 

[concretecamper]

If only Roman Catholics took 1 Timothy 2:5 to heart and stopped praying to Mary and all of the other Saints.

Mark 2:4 And when they could not offer him unto him for the multitude, they uncovered the roof where he was: and opening it, they let down the bed wherein the man sick of the palsy lay.
2:5 And when Jesus had seen their faith, he saith to the sick of the palsy: Son, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.


Intersesory prayer, the Communion of Saints...God's loving family

 

[Markwsmith2020]

When did I say the saints were dead? They are alive in heaven

 

[Fidelibus]

If only Roman Catholics took 1 Timothy 2:5 to heart and stopped praying to Mary and all of the other Saints.

Oh Yeah?? If only Protestants like yourself took the four verses that come prior to 1Tim.2:5 to heart, then you would clearly see that intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

 

[RC1970]

Oh Yeah?? If only Protestants like yourself took the four verses that come prior to 1Tim.2:5 to heart, then you would clearly see that intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

Why do Romans persist in a willful disregard for common sense? Nowhere in the passage that you cite does the Apostle even hint at praying "TO" anyone other than the Triune Godhead?

 

[Fidelibus]

Why do Romans persist in a willful disregard for common sense?

Well, RC1970, I've never been to Rome, (but going to Vatican City is on my bucket list) but pretty sure the people of that city would disagree with ya.

Nowhere in the passage that you cite does the Apostle even hint at praying "TO" anyone other than the Triune Godhead?

Say's who?


Let's take a look at what 1Tim.2:1-4 has to say.....


"First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, (2) for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. (3) This is good and pleasing to God our savior, (4) who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth."


Since when did "everyone; kings; (plural) and "all" in authority " become part of the Holy Trinity?



Now let me ask you something......if I were to ask you to pray for me, because I had an illness and needed God’s healing, would you? would you pray on my behalf?

 

[RC1970]

Well, RC1970, I've never been to Rome, (but going to Vatican City is on my bucket list) but pretty sure the people of that city would disagree with ya.





Say's who?


Let's take a look at what 1Tim.2:1-4 has to say.....


"First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, (2) for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. (3) This is good and pleasing to God our savior, (4) who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth."


Since when did "everyone; kings; (plural) and "all" in authority " become part of the Holy Trinity?



Now let me ask you something......if I were to ask you to pray for me, because I had an illness and needed God’s healing, would you? would you pray on my behalf?

I will answer your question if you can answer this question:

What is the difference between praying "for" someone and praying "to" someone?

If you can't give a rational answer to this question, I will leave you alone.

 

[tz620q]

I will answer your question if you can answer this question:

What is the difference between praying "for" someone and praying "to" someone?

If you can't give a rational answer to this question, I will leave you alone.

Hail Mary, Full of Grace.
Blessed are thou among women
And Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God.
Pray FOR us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Is there a difference between asking someone to pray for you (with the assumption that their prayer is directed towards God) and praying to someone?
I think that praying to someone would mean that we thought that someone was God and able to grant our prayer alone. Before you run to the internet and post some half-cocked prayer that some Catholic printed ages ago as proof, you stated that Roman Catholics do this. I would say that to prove that statement you would have to show that the prayer you refer to is at least common within current Roman Catholic devotions. I posted one very common prayer for you to show that it is a petition to Mary to pray for us. Maybe you have another in mind.

 

[Phil 1:21]

and stopped conflating praying 'for' someone with praying 'to' someone.

That's a very good point. In our small group we routinely pray for one another. I can assure you we definitely do not pray to one another.

 

[Fidelibus]

I will answer your question if you can answer this question:

What is the difference between praying "for" someone and praying "to" someone?

Generally RC1970, when I see a person answer a question with a question, I see red flags. But in this case, I will make an exception. I will answer with the help of Catholic apologist Matt Nelson.

“To pray” does not necessarily mean “to worship”. Catholics understand that when we pray to God, it is an act of worship where we obtain grace directly from the very Source of grace itself. It is a “surge of the heart” towards the one God.

Prayer to saints is different. To pray can mean to worship, but not always; it can also mean to request or plea. Have you ever heard the old English phrase “Pray tell me…” used before asking a question? The use of the word “pray” in this context initiates a plea or request. This is also the context Catholics work within when praying to saints and angels.

When we pray to saints and angels, we request their intercession before God. We invite the invisible but living members of the Church who are more substantially in the presence of the “God of the Living” (Lk 20:38) to be another link in our prayer chain. Surely all Christians see the value in going to the most righteous members of the Church with our prayer intentions since they are “great in effect” (Jas 5:16). There are none more righteous than those who have been perfected in heaven.

As for "praying for" someone, Have you ever prayed on behalf of another, say a family member, friend? Or ever asked said people to pray for you? We Catholics believe that those who have been rewarded with eternal life, (heaven) are now more alive than they were while on earth. (Lk.20:38) This is why we pray "to" those that have have been rewarded with eternal life to pray "for" us. Recognizing we are all one Body in Christ with love for each other, it is reasonable to conclude God allows this awareness and intercession because charity does not end with death but only intensifies.

If you can't give a rational answer to this question, I will leave you alone.

Hope that was "rational" enough for you. If so, and since I answered your questions, as you promised, if I were to ask you to pray for me, because I had an illness and needed God’s healing, would you? would you pray on my behalf?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hail Mary, Full of Grace.
Blessed are thou among women
And Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God.
Pray FOR us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Is there a difference between asking someone to pray for you (with the assumption that their prayer is directed towards God) and praying to someone?
I think that praying to someone would mean that we thought that someone was God and able to grant our prayer alone. Before you run to the internet and post some half-cocked prayer that some Catholic printed ages ago as proof, you stated that Roman Catholics do this. I would say that to prove that statement you would have to show that the prayer you refer to is at least common within current Roman Catholic devotions. I posted one very common prayer for you to show that it is a petition to Mary to pray for us. Maybe you have another in mind.

This is interesting in that one prays to Mary in order to request her to pray for one. As for myself, I see no particular need to pray to anyone other than the Triune God, who unfailingly hears and answers my prayers. I have great assurance as a result, whereas if I ask another person to pray for me, there is always the real possibility that they might not do so.

 

[tz620q]

This is interesting in that one prays to Mary in order to request her to pray for one. As for myself, I see no particular need to pray to anyone other than the Triune God, who unfailingly hears and answers my prayers. I have great assurance as a result, whereas if I ask another person to pray for me, there is always the real possibility that they might not do so.

7b's,
I would hope that a Catholic would see the value in what you do. We also do the same. The Hail Mary is an optional devotion. I was Catholic for 20 years before I learned it. It takes time to see the beauty of the full panoply of God's creation, especially those elements that are not staring us in the face.

 

[DeaconDean]

This is interesting in that one prays to Mary in order to request her to pray for one. As for myself, I see no particular need to pray to anyone other than the Triune God, who unfailingly hears and answers my prayers. I have great assurance as a result, whereas if I ask another person to pray for me, there is always the real possibility that they might not do so.

Ironic, in that the scriptures tells :

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." -Heb. 4:16 (KJV)

I notice that it does not say:

Let us therefore come boldly unto Mary, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Or:

Let us therefore come boldly unto insert saint name, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Fidelibus]

In our small group we routinely pray for one another.

So in other words JayW, your group is interceding for one another, correct? If you agree, this could only mean your group is acting as a co-mediator's of sorts between God and that person you are praying for. It begs one to wonder, why is it then, if it is okay for you and your group, but not ok for Mary or the Saints to do this same thing? Aren’t they too part of the body of Christ?”

 

[Phil 1:21]

So in other words JayW, your group is interceding for one another, correct? If you agree, this could only mean your group is acting as a co-mediator's of sorts between God and that person you are praying for. It begs one to wonder, why is it then, if it is okay for you and your group, but not ok for Mary or the Saints to do this same thing? Aren’t they too part of the body of Christ?”

Scenario 1: "Hey, Bob, could you please pray for me this week?"

Scenario 2: Build a statue to Bob and install stained glass windows with pictures of Bob in a house of worship. Light candles before that statue, light incense to it, and work my way through 53 rosary beads of "Hail Bob."

As an exercise, I invite you to contemplate the difference between those two scenarios. Afterwards I invite you to cite even one incident in scripture where God tells us to pray to anyone but Him alone. Thank you.

 

[Fidelibus]

Scenario 1: "Hey, Bob, could you please pray for me this week?"

Scenario 2: Build a statue to Bob and install stained glass windows with pictures of Bob in a house of worship. Light candles before that statue, light incense to it, and work my way through 53 rosary beads of "Hail Bob."

As an exercise, I invite you to contemplate the difference between those two scenarios. Afterwards I invite you to cite even one incident in scripture where God tells us to pray to anyone but Him alone. Thank you.

Sorry JayW, but these hypothetical scenarios of yours are nothing more than deflections. I will address what you have posted here, "after" you address what I asked. I will word it differently if that helps.

So in other words JayW, your group is interceding for one another, correct?

When your group (prayer/bible?) prays for one another, do you consider it as interceding for one another? If not, why not?

If you agree, this could only mean your group is acting as a co-mediator's of sorts between God and that person you are praying for.

If so, would you agree that the members of your group are acting as co-mediator's between God and other members of your group? If not, why not?

It begs one to wonder, why is it then, if it is okay for you and your group, but not ok for Mary or the Saints to do this same thing?

Again, why?

Aren’t they too part of the body of Christ?

So.... do you believe they (Mary, and all the other Saints in heaven) are part of the Body of Christ?