One dangerous side effect of Evolution.

[Windlord]

Even though I myself am a TE, I realize that there has been one very dangerous side effect of Evolution, and that is social Darwinism. For those of you who don't know what it is, it takes the "Survival of the Fittest", or Natural Selection, and takes it out of a scientific setting and places it into the social arena, and the Corporate world (well, it already existed in the corporate world, but now they feel more justified in what they do.).

This is why, as a TE, I cannot support Natural Selection. Taken to it's logical conclusion it leads to the Idea that God isn't just inactive in the Evolution of species, but in the Evolution of Societies and Civilization. And I cannot believe this, I will not believe it. We are not free to do anything to advance our own society and civilization, and we should not act as if we are. I cannot believe that God would allow the world to operate in this way, in Natural Selection.

Peace,

Windlord.

 

[artybloke]

Survival of the fittest (if by fittest you mean "strongest") isn't Natural Selection. Natural selection is the process whereby the species survives if it "fits into" its evolutionary niche. It dies out if the conditions of that niche change but the species does not, or not fast enough. Or it changes into something else.

It has nothing to do with "society" or individual behaviour. Evolution is about species population; there is no such thing as individual evolution. It can't be applied anyway outside of biology, and your "logical conclusion" is nothing more than a projection of some economists who took the ToE as a metaphor for their own views. It's a bit like refering to a big rise on the Stock Exchange as a "Big Bang."

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Social darwinianism is not part of TofE, it is the extension of the biological theory into the realm of metaphysics. But it is not science, it is metaphysics. Science doesn't do "oughts" or normative theories, metaphysics does.

Just because someone says that nature is red in tooth and claw, and that human beings are part of nature, therefore human societies ought to be competitive. And claim to be doing science, they are not, they are doing metaphysics.

Therefore NS as a scientific theory has nothing to do with the theories in social darwinianism except that some people claim to be deriving their metaphysics from NS.

To conflate TofE and Social Darwinianism is to make the category error, that error of confusing the levels of the discussion. Science is not metaphysics, science describes the world it doesn't prescribe, human beings do.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Even though I myself am a TE, I realize that there has been one very dangerous side effect of Evolution, and that is social Darwinism. For those of you who don't know what it is, it takes the "Survival of the Fittest", or Natural Selection, and takes it out of a scientific setting and places it into the social arena, and the Corporate world (well, it already existed in the corporate world, but now they feel more justified in what they do.).

And Manifest Destiny did the exact same thing to the Christian faith. Ask any Native American how that worked out for them... you might have to look hard; they are a bit scarce these days.

The point is that any idea can be twisted for selfish ends... but that's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

This is why, as a TE, I cannot support Natural Selection.

One doesn't "support" natural selection... it's not a candidate running for office. You either acknowledge that it exists or you do not.

Taken to it's logical conclusion it leads to the Idea that God isn't just inactive in the Evolution of species, but in the Evolution of Societies and Civilization.

Logical, except that "evolution" applies only to biology, not sociology. "Social Darwinism" no more a part of evolution than Manifest Destiny was a part of Christianity.

And I cannot believe this, I will not believe it. We are not free to do anything to advance our own society and civilization, and we should not act as if we are. I cannot believe that God would allow the world to operate in this way, in Natural Selection.

Change those last two words to "Manifest Destiny," and your argument would work just as well against our faith...with the exact same flaws.

Peace,

Windlord.

Not to sound like a broken record, but everything you said about NS applies just as well to MD, and can be refuted in exactly the same way. You're rejecting the totality (or close to the totality) of an idea based only on what certain people did with it to further their own selfish agendas.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

It is interesting that at the time of the rise of social darwinianism that there were alternative theories, for instance, P.Kropotkin that said that evolution was cooperative not competitive.

but the major analogy for TofE was derived from the rise of English capitalism and that basis has persisted ever since, despite the fact that it is not a good analogy.

 

[hithesh]

"Social Darwinism", is the laws of nature. It is the way animal behave, and humans do without reason.

We can not argue that sin and goodness dwells within us all. It is just that we [Christians] devote our life to live righteously, and yet we are always tempted by our flesh to do the opposite.

"Social Darwinism" does not dictate how we should behave, but it tells us how our flesh desires to behave. It is through God's gift of reason, that we are able to value somethings and someones other than ourselves, and go against what flesh so desires.

 

[stumpjumper]

There are a lot of aspects of "social darwinism" that are present without even taking the biological theory of evolution into account. The two are not neccesarily related and social evolution is in it's infancy if it is really going anywhere anyway...

One thing that goes against the view of social darwinism is the emergence of altruistic tendencies. If the ToE is correct then our altruistic tendencies as a race seems to go against where the ToE would logically lead...

As if we were being pulled forward by a loving force or something...

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Social darwinism predates Darwin. People have had let the strong survive philosophies since antiquity.

 

[gluadys]

"Social Darwinism", is the laws of nature. It is the way animal behave, and humans do without reason.

Social Darwinism has nothing to do with the laws of nature. It is the imposition of Victorian class arrogance on the social order using Darwin as a false justification for a political ideology.

 

[theFijian]

I cannot believe that God would allow the world to operate in this way, in Natural Selection.

What always perplexes me is when I hear Christians dictating to God how he can and can't operate. As Christians we believe that all authority has been given to Christ in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18) so whatever happens on earth or in heaven above happens under the authority of Christ, no matter how it offends our sensitivities.

 

[PaladinValer]

...Except that isn't a side effect of evolution.

Evolution and Social Darwinism are apples and (rotten) oranges. The former is science and the other is, like Creationism, psuedoscience.

 

[Scholar in training]

Social Darwinism does not condemn the theory of evolution any more than it condemns capitalism.

 

[gluadys]

Social Darwinism does not condemn the theory of evolution any more than it condemns capitalism.

It certainly doesn't condemn capitalism. But it distorts Darwinism if it does not turn it on its head. The essence of Social Darwinism is to draw ethical conclusions from evolution that do not actually apply socially.

Chief among these is that no assistance should be given to the "unfit" as this would weaken the species. This, of course, assumes that we know how to establish who is "unfit". And that decision is invariably political. The poor, the uneducated, the powerless, are always those deemed "unfit" by those who hold the reins of power in any society.

Writng off individuals or societies or nations as "basket cases" not worthy of social and economic investment has nothing to do with the science of evolution. It has everything to do with maintaining the status quo of a class-based, racist, patriarchal society.