One common objection to Reformed theology that upsets me.

[Neostarwcc]

It doesn't matter where you look, the internet, youtube, real life, Television, whatever there are two major misconceptions floating around about Calvinism/reformed theology today that deeply upset me. And that's the notion that we believe that God forces "saved and chosen" people to say "yes" to him. That couldn't be further from the truth! We do NOT believe that people accept Jesus against their will. I have a counter question to this interpretation of reformed theology. Did Martin Luther accept Christ against his will? Did John Calvin or any of the other reformers? Did YOU? Did Abraham? Did Isaiah? Did... anyone that the Bible says God chose accept God against their will? No! Of course not! We freely accepted him and loved him! So what's the difference between this and freewill? Its simple! We didn't accept God on our own free will and we CANNOT accept him on our free will. If God left us to our free will NOT ONE of us would be saved because the Bkble says that without the interference of God we CANNOT accept him! We WILL not accept him and it is IMPOSSIBLE to accept him!
SO whats the difference between God forcing us to accept him and what Calvinists actually believe? We believe that God ENABLES us to accept him (see the teaching if total depravity). We believe that every human being in the world born without sin would naturally accept God on their own. Left without sin humanities "free will" if you will is to ALWAYS accept and love God ad do what he says. The problem is, we are born into sin and naturally DESPISE God! Without God's intervention nobody would be or could be saved. This includes Christs death and God's interference with each and every sheep of God. God does not FORCE us to obey him. We come naturally and gladly because our true natures are restored! Praise God!

Another common myth that I hear all to frequently is that the reformed think that only a few people will be saved. This just isn't the case. The reformed believe the exact opposite of that. We believe that a VAST MAJORITY of the world will be saved. In fact one of the greatest reformed preachers of all time Charles Spurgeon believed that there would be more people in heaven than actually in hell. I dont know if he is right or not? But one thing I do know for a fact? The saved are an extremely large number as vast as the stars that no man can count. Why do I know that? The Bible says so. Not omly does the Bible say so, but God himself says so (see my sig) and the apostle John saw the very same sheep of God in Revelation 7:8. The saved are NOT a small number. To claim so you would have to call God and the Apostle John liars. There are more people in heaven than either you or I could imagine. Thats a biblical fact. Stop spreading this filth about reformed theology, its just NOT true.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Interesting. I'm not a calvinist but I myself do not believe that there will be more people in heaven than in hell.

1) The verse in your sig says "offspring". But not all offspring is automatically saved.
2) In Rev it says "there before me was a great multitude that no one could count" (Rev 7:9) so it will certainly be many people, but not necessarily the majority of people that have ever existed.

Today about 29% of the world's population call themselves Christians. The amount is growing so we have to expect a smaller percentage for the past.
In addition to that we know that "small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it" (Mt 7:14). It certainly will not be the majority of people who enter heaven.

Jesus himself said in Mt 7:21: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"
You see, of those 29% of people who call themselves Christians many people believe with their mouth but not with their heart. They don't obey God and don't have a personal relationship with Him, although they go to church or read the Bible. To those God will say "I never knew you!"

The Bible warns us urgently to stay on the narrow path. "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."
Don't be mistaken, heaven won't be a crowded place.

 

[Carl Emerson]

God does not FORCE us to obey him. We come naturally and gladly because our true natures are restored! Praise God!

Does this mean that our natures are restored before we are born again?

 

[Carl Emerson]

The saved are NOT a small number

I have no problem with this because we are talking about the cumulative amount of believers right through the span of history. Yet at any one time in history believers can be in a serious minority - yes ???

 

[A_Thinker]

SO whats the difference between God forcing us to accept him and what Calvinists actually believe? We believe that God ENABLES us to accept him (see the teaching if total depravity). We believe that every human being in the world born without sin would naturally accept God on their own. Left without sin humanities "free will" if you will is to ALWAYS accept and love God ad do what he says. The problem is, we are born into sin and naturally DESPISE God! Without God's intervention nobody would be or could be saved. This includes Christs death and God's interference with each and every sheep of God. God does not FORCE us to obey him. We come naturally and gladly because our true natures are restored! Praise God!

So ... there are some questions that arise related to this line of belief.

1. Everything we are is of God ... or within the power of God to control. If God created us to love Him ... and we would naturally do so, ... from whence comes the power of sin to break that love ?

When Adam/Eve were tempted in the garden, ... why did they not refuse ... based upon their natural love of God ? Why was the serpent able to convince Eve that her beloved God was holding out on her ?

2. If it is God's will for us to love Him, why did He allow that love to be undone by sin ... if His plan was only to undo the effect of sin at some time in the future ... for some of us ?

Without purpose, such a plan seems contrived and arbitrary.

Now, I will admit that these very same questions can be posed to non-calvinist believers, as well.

For me, this plan of God for mankind doesn't make sense ... unless there is something to be gained in the process.

The DEVELPMENT of men/women would seem to be a viable gain from this process in which God creates mankind to love and fellowship with Him, but allows them to be seduced away, in large part, because they have not developed the character to resist the temptation.

So, after their betrayal of their Creator, men and women are left without their former fellowship with God, to experience good and evil, and to learn what they have lost as a result of their betrayal.

All seems lost until, at a point of His own choosing, God mitigates the wages of sin through the death of His Son, and offers atonement to his fallen creation. All those who will ... are graced with a reconnection with God, within which they will grow/develop into the loving souls that God ultimately desires of us.

Whosoever will may come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. -- Rev. 22:17b.

 

[A_Thinker]

We freely accepted him and loved him!

A thought has just occurred to me ... and, I've arrived at the point of seniority ... where if I don't note it down immediately ... I very well may lose it forever.

The thought is this ... could the grace which God imparts to us to enable our acceptance and trust in Him ... be the earthly circumstances of our lives ?

Does God guide us in our lives ... until we arrive at a point of the realization of our need and desire for God ?

 

[St_Worm2]

...the notion that we believe that God forces "saved and chosen" people to say "yes" to him.

Hello Neostarwcc, I believe that this may have something to do with one of the TULIP "petals", at least in part, and the misunderstanding by many concerning the Reformed meaning of "Irresistible Grace". Many non-Reformed believers misunderstand the "I" in TULIP to mean that even though we resist God with every ounce of our strength and being, He forces us to accept Him as our Savior and Lord anyway ~vs~ what we really mean by the "I", which is the fact that God becomes the irresistible Object of our affections.

We freely choose to exercise the gift of saving faith that God has given us when we choose to believe, but Calvinism teaches that it is us making the free will choice to believe, and it is also us doing the believing (as you also indicated in your OP).

We believe that God ENABLES us to accept him (see the teaching if total depravity).

Of course, that is true of Arminians as well, though they teach "Prevenient Grace" (that God enables ALL to believe, but that only some will choose to do so) instead of "Irresistible Grace".

We believe that every human being in the world born without sin would naturally accept God on their own. Left without sin humanities "free will" if you will is to ALWAYS accept and love God ad do what he says.

If that's true, what happened to our progenitors (Adam and Eve)?

Thanks!

--David

 

[BobRyan]

It doesn't matter where you look, the internet, youtube, real life, Television, whatever there are two major misconceptions floating around about Calvinism/reformed theology today that deeply upset me. And that's the notion that we believe that God forces "saved and chosen" people to say "yes" to him.

Is it your view that 5 point Calvinists are Arminians?

That couldn't be further from the truth! We do NOT believe that people accept Jesus against their will. I have a counter question to this interpretation of reformed theology. Did Martin Luther accept Christ against his will?

Arminians would say that Martin Luther did not accept Christ against his will. I think we all agree on that.

 

[Charlie24]

It doesn't matter where you look, the internet, youtube, real life, Television, whatever there are two major misconceptions floating around about Calvinism/reformed theology today that deeply upset me. And that's the notion that we believe that God forces "saved and chosen" people to say "yes" to him. That couldn't be further from the truth! We do NOT believe that people accept Jesus against their will. I have a counter question to this interpretation of reformed theology. Did Martin Luther accept Christ against his will? Did John Calvin or any of the other reformers? Did YOU? Did Abraham? Did Isaiah? Did... anyone that the Bible says God chose accept God against their will? No! Of course not! We freely accepted him and loved him! So what's the difference between this and freewill? Its simple! We didn't accept God on our own free will and we CANNOT accept him on our free will. If God left us to our free will NOT ONE of us would be saved because the Bkble says that without the interference of God we CANNOT accept him! We WILL not accept him and it is IMPOSSIBLE to accept him!
SO whats the difference between God forcing us to accept him and what Calvinists actually believe? We believe that God ENABLES us to accept him (see the teaching if total depravity). We believe that every human being in the world born without sin would naturally accept God on their own. Left without sin humanities "free will" if you will is to ALWAYS accept and love God ad do what he says. The problem is, we are born into sin and naturally DESPISE God! Without God's intervention nobody would be or could be saved. This includes Christs death and God's interference with each and every sheep of God. God does not FORCE us to obey him. We come naturally and gladly because our true natures are restored! Praise God!

Another common myth that I hear all to frequently is that the reformed think that only a few people will be saved. This just isn't the case. The reformed believe the exact opposite of that. We believe that a VAST MAJORITY of the world will be saved. In fact one of the greatest reformed preachers of all time Charles Spurgeon believed that there would be more people in heaven than actually in hell. I dont know if he is right or not? But one thing I do know for a fact? The saved are an extremely large number as vast as the stars that no man can count. Why do I know that? The Bible says so. Not omly does the Bible say so, but God himself says so (see my sig) and the apostle John saw the very same sheep of God in Revelation 7:8. The saved are NOT a small number. To claim so you would have to call God and the Apostle John liars. There are more people in heaven than either you or I could imagine. Thats a biblical fact. Stop spreading this filth about reformed theology, its just NOT true.

There are some in the Calvinist ranks that believe exactly what you have described as upsetting. I've talked to them. It's their definition of Calvinism.

We have the same problem in the Baptist ranks, different beliefs.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There are some in the Calvinist ranks that believe exactly what you have described as upsetting. I've talked to them. It's their definition of Calvinism.

We have the same problem in the Baptist ranks, different beliefs.

For that reason it is better to drop the labels and listen to one-another...

 

[Charlie24]

For that reason it is better to drop the labels and listen to one-another...

I don't think labels are the problem. It's the planting of false doctrine.

Just turn on your tv on Sunday morning.

 

[Albion]

There are some in the Calvinist ranks that believe exactly what you have described as upsetting. I've talked to them. It's their definition of Calvinism.

We have the same problem in the Baptist ranks, different beliefs.

That's because many Baptists, although as Baptistic as any other on the distinctive beliefs of their denomination, are Calvinists. It even has been known to split congregations.

 

[Charlie24]

That's because many Baptists, although as Baptistic as any other on the distinctive beliefs of their denomination, are Calvinists. It even has been known to split congregations.

Very true, I know many Baptists that hold to Calvinism.

I'm not one of them.

Most of these were inspired by Spurgeon.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't think labels are the problem. It's the planting of false doctrine.

Just turn on your tv on Sunday morning.

I haven't had TV for decades...

 

[Albion]

I haven't had TV for decades...

Now is the time for anyone in America who adopted that same policy to be really be glad of that. The endless political commercials are worse than I can ever remember.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Very true, I know many Baptists that hold to Calvinism.

I'm not one of them.

Most of these were inspired by Spurgeon.

You realise Spurgeon had throngs of intercessors praying in the basement, praying while he preached.

I think his theological position has been widely misrepresented.

If you are interested in this 'the forgotten Spurgeon' by Ian H Murray is good reading.

 

[Charlie24]

You realise Spurgeon had throngs of intercessors praying in the basement, praying while he preached.

I think his theological position has been widely misrepresented.

If you are interested in this 'the forgotten Spurgeon' by Ian H Murray is good reading.

I have several of his books, but not that one. Thanks.

Spurgeon said from the pulpit that at heart he was a Calvinist. I agree he was not understood on his Calvinist stand. It was not as dramatic as that of Calvin.

 

[bling]

It doesn't matter where you look, the internet, youtube, real life, Television, whatever there are two major misconceptions floating around about Calvinism/reformed theology today that deeply upset me. And that's the notion that we believe that God forces "saved and chosen" people to say "yes" to him. That couldn't be further from the truth! We do NOT believe that people accept Jesus against their will. I have a counter question to this interpretation of reformed theology. Did Martin Luther accept Christ against his will? Did John Calvin or any of the other reformers? Did YOU? Did Abraham? Did Isaiah? Did... anyone that the Bible says God chose accept God against their will? No! Of course not! We freely accepted him and loved him! So what's the difference between this and freewill? Its simple! We didn't accept God on our own free will and we CANNOT accept him on our free will. If God left us to our free will NOT ONE of us would be saved because the Bkble says that without the interference of God we CANNOT accept him! We WILL not accept him and it is IMPOSSIBLE to accept him!
SO whats the difference between God forcing us to accept him and what Calvinists actually believe? We believe that God ENABLES us to accept him (see the teaching if total depravity). We believe that every human being in the world born without sin would naturally accept God on their own. Left without sin humanities "free will" if you will is to ALWAYS accept and love God ad do what he says. The problem is, we are born into sin and naturally DESPISE God! Without God's intervention nobody would be or could be saved. This includes Christs death and God's interference with each and every sheep of God. God does not FORCE us to obey him. We come naturally and gladly because our true natures are restored! Praise God!

Another common myth that I hear all to frequently is that the reformed think that only a few people will be saved. This just isn't the case. The reformed believe the exact opposite of that. We believe that a VAST MAJORITY of the world will be saved. In fact one of the greatest reformed preachers of all time Charles Spurgeon believed that there would be more people in heaven than actually in hell. I dont know if he is right or not? But one thing I do know for a fact? The saved are an extremely large number as vast as the stars that no man can count. Why do I know that? The Bible says so. Not omly does the Bible say so, but God himself says so (see my sig) and the apostle John saw the very same sheep of God in Revelation 7:8. The saved are NOT a small number. To claim so you would have to call God and the Apostle John liars. There are more people in heaven than either you or I could imagine. Thats a biblical fact. Stop spreading this filth about reformed theology, its just NOT true.

You blame those speaking out against: “God enabling only some people to make a free will choice that will allow them to be gifted and intentionally not enabling other people” with presenting a “major misconceptions”.

You say: “Left without sin humanities "free will" if you will is to ALWAYS accept and love God ad do what he says.”, yet Adam and Eve were without sin and made the free will choice to disobey, so can you explain the contradiction?

Where do you find in scripture: “we are born into sin and naturally DESPISE God”? We after Adam and Eve sinned do have “knowledge” of good and evil, but is added knowledge itself evil and how does it change the “nature” of humans, since knowldge is the only inward change, we know about with Adam’s sin?

All mature adults do sin and thus are hell bound, having no reason to desire God, they are “dead”, but by Christ’s definition of “dead”, used to describe the prodigal son in the foreign land, the son could still do stuff including come to his senses and turn to the father.

We are not talking about initially making some noble, honorable, worthy, righteous or holy choice, that could be considered just a little deserving of something good, but there is an autonomous free will choice.

The sinner can be macho, hold in there, be a good soldier of satan, be willing to accept the punishment he fully deserves and really not bother his father further with undeserving requests or the sinner can wimp out, give up, and surrender to his enemy while God is still his hated enemy, with just the outside hope his hated enemy might extend totally undeserved charity.

This free will willingness to accept God’s undeserved charity as pure charity, allows God to shower the person with unbelievable gift like: eternal life, Godly type Love, a purpose in life, a loving Family, friends, the indwelling holy Spirit and so much more.