One Church or one church, means what, who is right?

[AnticipateHisComing]

In another thread a position was made that the Roman Catholic Church is the one Church of Jesus. I was thrown off with the nomenclature, so that is my first question.

What is the established meaning of the Church verses the/a church?

I think the Church represents the body of all believers. I think the/a church represents any religious denomination. I think this because our greatest affiliation is to be called Christian and so I capitalize Church when talking about the body of Christian believers. I think a church of any denomination is of less importance as these churches are earthly institutions, therefore I use a lower case c in church.

This question is really one of convention and if there is a standard convention in distinguishing between the body of Christians and the body of those in a particular religious denomination. It bothers me that the words are thrown around without a standard definition and without explanation of how a poster is using it. I also have a much more doctrinal question about the RCC position and it is my second question.

Did Jesus set up one church to be special/anointed?

One from the RCC has claimed that their church is the one church that Jesus set up, promised to protect and is responsible for protecting truth. I took this to be quite an arrogant statement and presumptuous because I don't see any proof of it.

My first argument is that I don't think Jesus set up a church, as in anything like what the centrally organized bureaucracy of a denomination looks like today. He had followers that in the early days met in people's houses. To Jesus, the important issue was to follow the new covenant. He preached in Israel to mostly Jews. If there was an immediate church that Jesus started, it was in Jerusalem, but that church disappeared.

My second argument is that scriptures talks about the church being one body made up of many different parts, but what is common is that they are all baptized by one Spirit. Further it says Christ is the head of the body of believers/church. So if Christ is the head of all believers, I can't see one denomination have special authority. 1 Corithians 12:12-31

The RCC will argue that Christ is the head of the their church. They say all others are not true churches. I assume they don't think Christ is the head of them either. Is there any scripture to support this?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Can anyone establish what the standard meaning of the Church is?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Jesus only instituted one Church, the universal Church. We believe all who have been baptized using the Trinitarian formula are part of that Church, in various degrees of perfection. We believe that the Catholic Church is the root of all Christian denominations, and has the complete body of His teaching, and that all others have some subset of the complete body of his teaching. Regarding individual believers, no one can practice Christianity perfectly, the way Christ instituted it. So we are all striving to be holy, but we all fall short.

The Church, as Christ instituted it, is one body, one faith, one Baptism, one Lord. I like to say that catholic is what Christ instituted (the call to holiness), Catholic is one of the many ways Christians heed the call.

 

[Greg J.]

There isn't a generally accepted definition of church. It's one of the reasons there is fragmentation of the body of Christ.

There is always going to be conflict when people exalt their traditions.

“Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!” Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? (Matthew 15:2-3, 1984 NIV)

 

[Root of Jesse]

There isn't a generally accepted definition of church. It's one of the reasons there is fragmentation of the body of Christ.

There is always going to be conflict when people exalt their traditions.

“Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!” Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? (Matthew 15:2-3, 1984 NIV)

There was a generally accepted definition of church, until people decided they didn't like it.

 

[Albion]

In another thread a position was made that the Roman Catholic Church is the one Church of Jesus. I was thrown off with the nomenclature, so that is my first question.

What is the established meaning of the Church verses the/a church?

I think the Church represents the body of all believers. I think the/a church represents any religious denomination. I think this because our greatest affiliation is to be called Christian and so I capitalize Church when talking about the body of Christian believers. I think a church of any denomination is of less importance as these churches are earthly institutions, therefore I use a lower case c in church.

This question is really one of convention and if there is a standard convention in distinguishing between the body of Christians and the body of those in a particular religious denomination. It bothers me that the words are thrown around without a standard definition and without explanation of how a poster is using it. I also have a much more doctrinal question about the RCC position and it is my second question.

Did Jesus set up one church to be special/anointed?

One from the RCC has claimed that their church is the one church that Jesus set up, promised to protect and is responsible for protecting truth. I took this to be quite an arrogant statement and presumptuous because I don't see any proof of it.

My first argument is that I don't think Jesus set up a church, as in anything like what the centrally organized bureaucracy of a denomination looks like today. He had followers that in the early days met in people's houses. To Jesus, the important issue was to follow the new covenant. He preached in Israel to mostly Jews. If there was an immediate church that Jesus started, it was in Jerusalem, but that church disappeared.

My second argument is that scriptures talks about the church being one body made up of many different parts, but what is common is that they are all baptized by one Spirit. Further it says Christ is the head of the body of believers/church. So if Christ is the head of all believers, I can't see one denomination have special authority. 1 Corithians 12:12-31

The RCC will argue that Christ is the head of the their church. They say all others are not true churches. I assume they don't think Christ is the head of them either. Is there any scripture to support this?

Clearly, Christ founded a movement, albeit with appointed leaders, but not a denomination. There weren't any denominations at first, and if there were some to claim the position of being "the oldest" it would be the Eastern Orthodox churches, not the Roman Catholic Church that didn't even know of such a thing as a Pope figure until several centuries later.

What's more, the New Testament itself defines the church by saying that it is the pillar and foundation of the faith...and in that same passage defines this entity as the "household of God," i.e. the people of God, not some particular club or organization of a group of believers.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Clearly, Christ founded a movement, albeit with appointed leaders, but not a denomination. There weren't any denominations at first, and if there were some to claim the position of being "the oldest" it would be the Eastern Orthodox churches, not the Roman Catholic Church that didn't even know of such a thing as a Pope figure until several centuries later.

Your opinion, while you might hold on to it, is just that, your opinion. Try not to pass it off as fact. The fact is that Peter's successors are known and named from his time to now. There was no "Roman" Catholic

What's more, the New Testament itself defines the church by saying that it is the pillar and foundation of the faith...and in that same passage defines this entity as the "household of God," i.e. the people of God, not some particular club or organization of a group of believers.

This part is true.

 

[Albion]

Your opinion, while you might hold on to it, is just that, your opinion.

And against that...we have your opinion and it "is just that." However, I did refer to historic facts; you have none.

 

[Root of Jesse]

And against that...we have your opinion and it "is just that." However, I did refer to historic facts; you have none.

Mine is not an opinion, but a historic fact, documented by many. Yours is opinion documented by your own point of view.

 

[Albion]

Mine is not an opinion, but a historic

LOL It's your opinion that it's a historic fact. But only because you want to believe it so.

 

[Hieronymus]

Yes, many denominations claim to be "the Church" or "remnant" or assume exclusivity.
The Catholic Church as we know it didn't exist in the early centuries, although the word "catholic" does mean something like 'common'.

Christians are the Church.
They are those who believe in Jesus Christ, repent and submit to God, put their trust in Him, do his Will, keep his Commandments, as is taught in the Bible, in particular the New Testament, where Paul is the main Apostle for the gentiles (non-Jews).

 

[FireDragon76]

Ecclessiology is one of the thorniest subjects in all of theology.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Ecclessiology is one of the thorniest subjects in all of theology.

Care to elaborate on why you say Ecclesiology is thorny?

I think because churches like to be divisive for self-serving reasons. After 50 years of Lutheran truth, I have become a firm believer in the non-denominational church.

 

[fhansen]

In another thread a position was made that the Roman Catholic Church is the one Church of Jesus. I was thrown off with the nomenclature, so that is my first question.

What is the established meaning of the Church verses the/a church?

I think the Church represents the body of all believers. I think the/a church represents any religious denomination. I think this because our greatest affiliation is to be called Christian and so I capitalize Church when talking about the body of Christian believers. I think a church of any denomination is of less importance as these churches are earthly institutions, therefore I use a lower case c in church.

This question is really one of convention and if there is a standard convention in distinguishing between the body of Christians and the body of those in a particular religious denomination. It bothers me that the words are thrown around without a standard definition and without explanation of how a poster is using it. I also have a much more doctrinal question about the RCC position and it is my second question.

Did Jesus set up one church to be special/anointed?

One from the RCC has claimed that their church is the one church that Jesus set up, promised to protect and is responsible for protecting truth. I took this to be quite an arrogant statement and presumptuous because I don't see any proof of it.

My first argument is that I don't think Jesus set up a church, as in anything like what the centrally organized bureaucracy of a denomination looks like today. He had followers that in the early days met in people's houses. To Jesus, the important issue was to follow the new covenant. He preached in Israel to mostly Jews. If there was an immediate church that Jesus started, it was in Jerusalem, but that church disappeared.

My second argument is that scriptures talks about the church being one body made up of many different parts, but what is common is that they are all baptized by one Spirit. Further it says Christ is the head of the body of believers/church. So if Christ is the head of all believers, I can't see one denomination have special authority. 1 Corithians 12:12-31

The RCC will argue that Christ is the head of the their church. They say all others are not true churches. I assume they don't think Christ is the head of them either. Is there any scripture to support this?

There can only be one church, from the beginning, simply because there is only "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph 4:5). Otherwise disunity would be the natural result.

 

[Berean777]

...

 

[Albion]

I appreciated your message, Berean. It wasn't identical to what I had referred to, but IMHO it was an extension of it.

My point was that Christ founded a church, an assembly of believers whoever and wherever they may be. He did not start a club (denomination), meaning a special society that stands apart from the rest of the religious organizations, recruits only for that club, thinks like any ordinary community organization or fraternity in terms of "us" versus "them," has some sort of special logo, membership cards and that sort of thing to distinguish it from rivals.

Of course I'm exaggerating with some of that imagery, but that's the essential difference between a movement and a particular institution. If the goal were higher education, we'd say Christ wanted education, not the University of Tennessee. If it were a call for representative government, we'd say he wanted democracy, not the United States of America to the exclusion of anyone else. And so on.

What you did was to translate a theological point into everyday life, highlighting a particularly unfortunate consequence of the "our group of Christians, not your group of Christians" way of thinking. Thank you.

 

[Berean777]

Sad indeed. Why should it be like this!

 

[Albion]

I think it's because of an all-too-human failing--thinking of everything in competitive terms. Humans find worth and their identity in being in a little box that is well-defined and which can be contrasted with some other boxes. It's harder to feel self-worth as part of the cosmos. So, we divide ourselves, in our thinking, into races, nationalities, political allegiances, even which sports teams we like best...and we think that our package sets us above the other ones. So often, when questions like "why is it this way" arise, the answer is pride, and that is a consequence of sin, of the Fall.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, the church should never have excluded poor little Arius's way of thinking for example. But the competitive nature just has its way...

 

[Albion]

Yes, the church should never have excluded poor little Arius's way of thinking for example. But the competitive nature just has its way...

Missed the point entirely, huh?