One Church & One Faith

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What if we did away with hierarchies and traditions in Christianity, and just started over with “Jesus only”. Is “one church & one faith” possible or are we just too embedded and divided... and will our penchant for control, together with individual problems and situations, always necessitate groups and sects?
 

RC1970

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What if we did away with hierarchies and traditions in Christianity, and just started over with “Jesus only”. Is “one church & one faith” possible or are we just too embedded and divided... and will our penchant for control, together with individual problems and situations, always necessitate groups and sects?
As long as there is sin in the world, there will be division.
 
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faroukfarouk

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What if we did away with hierarchies and traditions in Christianity, and just started over with “Jesus only”. Is “one church & one faith” possible or are we just too embedded and divided... and will our penchant for control, together with individual problems and situations, always necessitate groups and sects?
United fellowship with those in Christ already exists spiritually, if we read John's First Epistle.

Attempts to force all professing Christians into one organization, when it has been tried in the past, as in the Middle Ages, etc., has led to huge problems and is to be viewed very suspiciously, because it's the sort of things politicians would want for their convenience and is not what the spiritual fellowship and unity of 1 John is all about.
 
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Adstar

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What if we did away with hierarchies and traditions in Christianity, and just started over with “Jesus only”. Is “one church & one faith” possible or are we just too embedded and divided... and will our penchant for control, together with individual problems and situations, always necessitate groups and sects?

We should be following Jesus right now..
Forsaking anything that is not following Jesus right now..
We should be willing to stand alone like Noah right now..

How many people are members of a church who's do not agree with a doctrine or doctrines of that church, but stay as members simply because it's been their families church or because they have social contacts in that church or they think they gain social acceptance in their community because they attend that church???
 
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Albion

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Two answers:

First, Faroukfarouk is right that we all are already united under the banner that you're thinking is inadequate. That is to say that Christ's church is made up of all who truly believe in Him as Lord and Savior.

Second, if a visible, organizational unity is hoped for, no, I don't think that's possible. As RC1970 pointed out, this is a consequence of the human condition.
 
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Martyr's Crown

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I believe something like this can happen if/when one encounters more trials as a Christian. For example; Whenever more persecutions starts happening where you live, where Christians get's tortured and killed for their faith. When Christians will have to hide away together or be lead somewhere safe by God, then it no longer will matter what type of church backgrounds they have. This way I believe strongly that one will feel a great unity between all of those who truly loves and fears the Lord!
 
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faroukfarouk

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I believe something like this can happen if/when one encounters more trials as a Christian. For example; Whenever more persecutions starts happening where you live, where Christians get's tortured and killed for their faith. When Christians will have to hide away together or be lead somewhere safe by God, then it no longer will matter what type of church backgrounds they have. This way I believe strongly that one will feel a great unity between all of those who truly loves and fears the Lord!
True Christians have always been in a minority; and those with whom true fellowship in Christ can be enjoyed have always been part of a restricted company, compared with those who are popularly regarded as Christian.
 
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Dave-W

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What if we did away with hierarchies and traditions in Christianity, and just started over with “Jesus only”. Is “one church & one faith” possible
If you start over you have - Judaism. "Jesus only.." did not come to destroy the Law or Prophets.
 
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faroukfarouk

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How many people are members of a church who's do not agree with a doctrine or doctrines of that church, but stay as members simply because it's been their families church or because they have social contacts in that church or they think they gain social acceptance in their community because they attend that church???

Family influence can be good if it encourages people in prayer and the Scriptures.

But if family influence pressures people to stay in groups which do not follow the Scriptures faithfully, then it can be very bad.
 
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chevyontheriver

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What if we did away with hierarchies and traditions in Christianity, and just started over with “Jesus only”. Is “one church & one faith” possible or are we just too embedded and divided... and will our penchant for control, together with individual problems and situations, always necessitate groups and sects?
Not a chance of this making anything better. Not that anything could make it worse.

What we need are people who are willing to put truth over their traditions and follow truth where it leads, even if it leads to a place they are unprepared to go. Very few will be willing to do that.

We could be united in a generation if we started with John 17 and then followed the whole Bible, reclaiming the apostolic tradition along the way. We could keep our non-divisive distinctives. We could show the world that Jesus is not divided. It would bring about a moment in history where the world could see Jesus and not have a ready-made excuse not to follow Him. But it ain't gonna happen.

How many kinds of Baptists are there for starters, all wedded to their opposing traditions and opposing hierarchies? Now wouldn't it be wonderful if you could just do away with the Catholic hierarchy, you might think. Then would everything be bliss? Actually it would be even more chaotic division. There is a reason the Catholic Church is hated by the extreme secularists, in that we have preserved up to now a coherent moral teaching, one that the culture needs even as it tries hard to dispose of it. Baptists were, for a while, about to endorse abortion until happily at least the Southern Baptists figured it out.

Point is that traditions do allow us to preserve many good things and to dump all tradition and all hierarchy would mean losses. So it comes down to which traditions to keep and which to dispose of. Why mine of course. Except you would end up saying none at all but keeping yours of course. Who dares to follow truth where it leads?

Jesus is of course the answer. But where shall we lay our heads at night? Everybody wants their own pillow and their own bed. That is why I am utterly pessimistic about this. Back in the 1960's and 1970's I was big on ecumenism. It didn't work so well. Those groups that should have united didn't want anything to do with each other, preferring to spit than to confide in each other. The Catholics drew closer to the Lutherans and Anglicans, but for the most part those groups went out to left field, undoing the advances along the way. We all have less hatred, by a little bit. But everybody is in a silo. Short of a real miracle, it's unfixable. Human attempts to 'just start over' will go nowhere. With a real miracle maybe some of us can get there. But that really would mean following truth where it leads. Who dares to do it?
 
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Greg J.

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What if we did away with hierarchies and traditions in Christianity, and just started over with “Jesus only”. Is “one church & one faith” possible or are we just too embedded and divided... and will our penchant for control, together with individual problems and situations, always necessitate groups and sects?
This is what was done. Then disagreements arose and people followed different paths until the current state of affairs. With your thoughts on this question, you might find Ephesians 4 applicable. Here is a snippet of it:

It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. (bold mine, Ephesians 4:11-15, 1984 NIV)

To head in a better direction, more individuals need to press in the direction we see in Mark 12:30 and the first half of Philippians 2. It's pretty hard and probably needs to be done a bit at a time by a community of believers so they can support each other through the refiner's fire.
 
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bling

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What if we did away with hierarchies and traditions in Christianity, and just started over with “Jesus only”. Is “one church & one faith” possible or are we just too embedded and divided... and will our penchant for control, together with individual problems and situations, always necessitate groups and sects?


Severe persecution will eliminate the differences in the insignificant stuff separating a lot of denominations and the truth will prevail.

I have for years now been involved with the underground Church in China (being in the USA, I cannot do much directly).

40 years ago Christianity was virtually wiped out in China, all full time ministers were sent to concentration camps never to be seen again, except for the government approved “churches” that were very restricted. All religious books were burned and outlawed. We all assumed there were no native Christians left in China. The news today is that there might be as many as 100 million Christians in the underground churches in China and it is growing fast.

These Chinese Christian are lucky to have a complete Bible, yet they all seem to be teaching the exact same doctrine. From what I heard the Government established their “creed”, by publicly listing out what Christians “could not teach”, which became the list for what they taught: Christ the son of God, crucified, buried three days and rose, communion, forgiveness of sin, heaven and hell. They all seem to practice: believer emersion baptism to show a commitment to Christ, count the cost is very much emphasized, sacrificially helping other, and training everyone to teach since they are limited in size to groups of 20 or so they have to keep splitting up as they grow (they do not just make converts, but make disciples.

For years the Communist Government toned down their hard line opposition to Christianity to appease the international governments while they were economically growing, but with a down turn in their economy they have stepped up persecution and still wants to have some “control” over the underground Christian Church. They have acknowledged verbally that they cannot stop these Christian and in some ways are envious of their commitment and morals.


PS. there is no hierarchies system in the Chinese underground church, since the high position is the unpaid house church leader of 20 people. There are unpaid elders which might be for a community of 3-4 house churches, but one of the qualifications they gave me for being an elder was: they had to spend at least 18 months in prison for the way and come back stronger.
 
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inquiring mind

and a discerning heart
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<staff edit>

I could be wrong, but I don’t think the Bible really addresses a hierarchy beyond elders and deacons, with Jesus Christ the head of course. During the time of the early church there where apostles who laid the groundwork for churches and appointed elders, but it seems to me that churches themselves were meant to be autonomous. That’s not to say they shouldn’t cooperate with each other though “one church – one faith”. Elders in the NT were not given authority over other elders, and where in the Bible are there distinctions between clergy and laity (must be tradition only). Only the early apostles exercised authority over more than one church, but they even considered themselves fellow workers. And, I bet “Jesus only” is not a meaningless statement to the thief on the cross.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Is “one church & one faith” possible
There is only one Church and that is what matters to Jesus. Jesus is the head of that one Church. That one Church is the body of all saved.

To think that the one Church would be better served by one earthly religious denomination emphasizes earthly rule over spiritual rule. Does any think that there is going to be separate divisions in heaven for the saints that came out of the various denominations? Do you think there is going to be a doctrine test when we get to heaven?

While I personally strive to read God's word and test various church's doctrines against that, I don't think myself greater in heaven for following the doctrines of a particular church.

Note, there is scripture for God judging our hearts and our actions, but not how smart we are.
 
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PuerAzaelis

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It's the paradox of faith - we hold out a particular belief as absolute, but our actions always betray our intentions.

Thus the church is a always a sign of contradiction- yet also a hypocrite.

I have no reason to think this view applies on a collective basis but not a singular one.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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It's the paradox of faith - we hold out a particular belief as absolute, but our actions always betray our intentions.

Thus the church is a always a sign of contradiction- yet also a hypocrite.

I have no reason to think this view applies on a collective basis but not a singular one.
In all my arguments with Catholics, you have renewed my "faith" in them in your statement.

Bless you my fellow brother in Christ.
 
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inquiring mind

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There can only be one Church, but there are a million definitions of what that Church is. Pointing out that it is what matters to Jesus is meaningless.

So far you have indicated that "Jesus only" (post 13, 19) and "what matters to Jesus" (post 20) are meaningless. I'm not sure what you mean by taking this position.
 
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inquiring mind

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I have said that "Jesus only" is a meaningless statement.



I didn't say what what matters to Jesus is meaningless. I said, "There can only be one Church, but there are a million definitions of what that Church is."

You are posting a bunch of fluffy nonsense.

Didn't mean to offend... thanks for your explanation.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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<staff edit>

So according to you, what Jesus thinks is important/what matters is good, but to point out what these things are is meaningless.

You have totally missed the concept of Jesus' command to go out and preach/teach what he taught. It is never meaningless to repeat and emphasize Jesus' words or the words he spoke through the other apostles. These words speak of a single church headed by Jesus himself. This is the argument that I made in my post, but you just ignored it and created some artificial argument.

You started this thread hoping to unify around Jesus only. I reply in that vain and say we are. Somehow you take exception to my post but can't argue against my point of being united spiritually, if not united in earthly religious bureaucracy.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
 
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