One Catholic’s Honest Criticism about Sacrament of Confession

Daniel Peres

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Does not the blood of Jesus do that for all those in him? (Titus 2:14; 1 John 1:7; Hebrews 1:3)
Yes, yes that is where the purification comes from. I guess you can say it’s like being bathed with blood of Jesus. Don’t worry about purgatory. No body knows how long it lasts, it could happen in as little as a second. Also, although it’s commonly called purgatory, this place of purification really has no official name. The Eastern Catholics and Orthodox don’t call it that and the the Catholic Church will never force any Christian to use the word.
 
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Clare73

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While it is true that all sin is a trespass against God and His law; it's not as though Scripture doesn't also present us with the reality of how sin is injurious between people.
Agreed. . .but it is two different issues in different orders of magnitude which need to be remedied, they are not one and the same issue.
 
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Daniel Peres

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When did the entire church do anything?

God love you. . .but the methodology of historians, theologians, etc. are not about reading skills.

I am saying he didn't mention the subject, as he didn't mention many subjects of the Levitical law.

The methodology of those scholarly professions is most definitely concerned with reading skills. Anyway how could you possibly know, you are not on my side of the fence. To you advanced textual interpretation is like a mystery. It’s like medicine or military fields, you and I can learn a little about those topics, but we will never be capable of truly understanding what a doctor knows about medicine or what a veteran knows about war. As much as we might try, we will never understand those things. In that same way, if you haven’t been trained to read at an advanced level, you can’t possibly understand the knowledge you don’t have. I can say this because I didn’t always have my high level reading skills. I had a bachelors degree and I thought I knew all there was to know about reading until I learned that my reading skills had been seriously lacking.

Ad for Jesus’ teachings on homosexual activities, have ever considered that homosexual acts did not fall only under the purview of the Levitical laws. In addition to the Levitical laws there are God’s moral laws, and maybe you consider the possibility that homosexual acts also violated the moral law. After all, Paul, the former Pharisee, did not teach against homosexual acts because of the Levitical laws. No, he called homosexual acts idolatrous, and idolatry is prohibited by the first of the Ten Commandments which has nothing to do with the Levitical laws.
 
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Daniel Peres

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Agreed. . .but it is two different issues in different orders of magnitude which need to be remedied, they are not one and the same issue.
Actually, Jesus was clear in the parable of the goat and the sheep that what ever you do to your fellow man, you do to him. Personally, I choose to be a sheep, but people are free to be goats if they so wish.
 
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Clare73

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The methodology of those scholarly professions is most definitely concerned with reading skills. Anyway how could you possibly know, you are not on my side of the fence. To you advanced textual interpretation is like a mystery. It’s like medicine or military fields, you and I can learn a little about those topics, but we will never be capable of truly understanding what a doctor knows about medicine or what a veteran knows about war. As much as we might try, we will never understand those things. In that same way, if you haven’t been trained to read at an advanced level, you can’t possibly understand the knowledge you don’t have.
I can say this because I didn’t always have my high level reading skills. I had a bachelors degree and I thought I knew all there was to know about reading until
I learned that my reading skills had been seriously lacking.
Are you mistaking reading comprehension for reading skills?
Ad for Jesus’ teachings on homosexual activities, have ever considered that
homosexual acts did not fall only under the purview of the Levitical laws.
See the Levitical law in Leviticus 18:22.
In addition to the Levitical laws there are God’s moral laws, and maybe you consider the possibility that homosexual acts also violated the moral law. After all, Paul, the former Pharisee, did not teach against homosexual acts because of the Levitical laws. No, he
called homosexual acts idolatrous,
Refresh my memory as to where Paul presents homosexuality as idolatry.
and idolatry is prohibited by the first of the Ten Commandments which has nothing to do with the Levitical laws.
I am using "Levitical laws" to mean all the laws in the book of Leviticus, not just the ceremonial laws (as distinct from the moral and civil laws).
 
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Daniel Peres

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When did the entire church do anything?

God love you. . .but the methodology of historians, theologians, etc. are not about reading skills.

I am saying he didn't mention the subject, as he didn't mention many subjects of the Levitical law.

I didn’t notice your question asking, “When did the entire church do anything?” I am glad you asked the entire church has done many things and when their unity is threatened, an ecumenical council of bishops would be called by the pope to settle the matter. A perfect example for this is the Arian heresy. All Christians believed the words found at the beginning of the Gospel of John that “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” The entire church believed this until a priest named Arius began spreading a competing belief that Jesus was a created being and that he was not God. At the request of Emperor Constantine, the pope convened an ecumenical council to settle the dispute in order to have Christian unity on the issue once again. So that’s what happens when people start disagreeing with an established truth. It is the modus operandi of the Catholic Church to settle controversies in order to maintain orthodoxy.

In case your wondering why Constantine cared about the disunity, I’ll tell you. He had a terrible fear that if he let the Catholic Church fall apart, the Christian God that had given him the empire would take it away. As everyone knows, fear is a strong motivator.
 
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chevyontheriver

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While it is true that all sin is a trespass against God and His law; it's not as though Scripture doesn't also present us with the reality of how sin is injurious between people. In the Sermon on the Mount the Lord says that if we have caused injury to our brother, we should go and make amends before bringing the offering to the Temple.

The role of Confession and Absolution deals with the vertical element of sin. But that doesn't change the fact that we have injured our friends, neighbors, our brothers, or sisters, etc. Which is why we still have to actually go and say sorry and make amends. If I steal your car, it is true enough that God forgives me, but I still have to return your car and otherwise make amends with you. We are still supposed to love our neighbor; but this is a matter of good works out of obedience rather than the mercy and forgiveness of the Gospel.

I disagree with Purgatory and with the temporal effects of sin continuing on after death needing to be dealt with in such a way; but I fully affirm that the horizontal life of the believer is a life set upon good works in relation to our neighbor. If I hurt you, I still have to apologize. And if I don't, I again sin against God.

Scripture presents Law and Gospel, and it speaks of both the vertical relationship (us and God) which is only through the Gospel and the horizontal relationship (us and neighbor) which is where the Third Use of the Law remains that we might live into good works for our neighbor.

It's not either/or, it's both-and. We are both justified fully by the grace of God on Christ's account, and God forgives us by His grace alone; and we are called to lives of obedience that we should love our neighbor.

The proper understanding of Law and Gospel depends on this. Otherwise we start to confuse Law and Gospel: That we are justified before God on the basis of our good works toward our neighbor or that we can simply live lawlessly in sin and that we're forgiven anyway so we don't actually have to be Christians.

-CryptoLutheran
We almost agree on things. And you have the basics to understand purgatory, at least in the dogmatic sense even if probably not the old popular sense. On the rest, I fully agree with you that forgiveness and even justification are unearnable free gifts that we can at best ask for, but only there if we are prepped by grace. (That's pretty much a paraphrase of the council of Trent anyway.) As a consequence, absolution only requires our turning away from sin, and not our complete restoration of the damage done.
 
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Daniel Peres

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We almost agree on things. And you have the basics to understand purgatory, at least in the dogmatic sense even if probably not the old popular sense. On the rest, I fully agree with you that forgiveness and even justification are unearnable free gifts that we can at best ask for, but only there if we are prepped by grace. (That's pretty much a paraphrase of the council of Trent anyway.) As a consequence, absolution only requires our turning away from sin, and not our complete restoration of the damage done.

Fair enough, but in the spirit of our discussion I’d like to discuss Matthew 18:15-17 where it discusses what to do when a fellow Christian sins against another. It seems to me that the party that committed the sin is required to admit his sin and he probably was forced to make reparations for the harm he caused. Unless of course, you think the purpose of these verses was solely to get a sinner to acknowledge his sin, and not to force him to make reparations.

Then again, maybe these verses no longer serve a purposes since Christians now belong to different churches. It the offended party to go with the transgressor to the church, but nowadays we would have to ask, “Which church? Yours? Mine? A third party’s church to insure there is no bias?
 
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HARK!

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MOD HAT ON

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MOD HAT OFF
 
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chevyontheriver

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Fair enough, but in the spirit of our discussion I’d like to discuss Matthew 18:15-17 where it discusses what to do when a fellow Christian sins against another. It seems to me that the party that committed the sin is required to admit his sin and he probably was forced to make reparations for the harm he caused. Unless of course, you think the purpose of these verses was solely to get a sinner to acknowledge his sin, and not to force him to make reparations.
It's a two part thing. First part is to confess and to be absolved of the evil done. Second part is to repair the damage done and restore communion. It is not all one thing. It is two things. One does not and cannot earn forgiveness for sins. One can repair the damage done by sin, sometimes easily and sometimes with great difficulty.
Then again, maybe these verses no longer serve a purposes since Christians now belong to different churches. It the offended party to go with the transgressor to the church, but nowadays we would have to ask, “Which church? Yours? Mine? A third party’s church to insure there is no bias?
Well, who do you go to if your Presbyterian neighbor wrongs you? Or your Baptist neighbor? Or your charismatic neighbor? That is the manifestation of a whole different sin of disunity. They are all free to ignore you and the others you bring with you. Which is one reason so many Christians seek a government court solution even when we are told not to do that in disputes with other Christians.
 
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Clare73

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Actually, Jesus was clear in the parable of the goat and the sheep that what ever you do to your fellow man, you do to him. Personally, I choose to be a sheep, but people are free to be goats if they so wish.
Have you noticed that Jesus said "to one of these brothers of mine"?
Only those in Christ are his (adopted) brothers.
We will be judged by how we treat believers, not all mankind.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Have you noticed that Jesus said "to one of these brothers of mine."?
Only those in Christ are his (adopted) brothers.
We will be judged by how we treat believers, not all mankind.

Jesus is identifying "the least of these" as His brethren. It's not the same thing as our adoption, but rather Christ's identification with the lowly. We absolutely will be judged how we treat other people--regardless of whether they are fellow believers or not.

That's what "love your neighbor" means.

God doesn't give us a free pass if we ignore the starving Muslim, Pagan or Atheist.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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Jesus is identifying "the least of these" as His brethren. It's not the same thing as our adoption, but rather Christ's identification with the lowly. We absolutely will be judged how we treat other people--regardless of whether they are fellow believers or not.

That's what "love your neighbor" means.

God doesn't give us a free pass if we ignore the starving Muslim, Pagan or Atheist.

-CryptoLutheran
The Greek reads "one of the least of these brothers of mine."

Grammatically, that's one of his least brothers, not the least are his brothers.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Greek reads "one of the least of these brothers of mine."

Grammatically, that's one of his least brothers, not the least are his brothers.

And Jesus is still identifying with the lowly. "These brothers" refer to who? Jesus has told us, the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the stranger, the sick, etc. Jesus doesn't make a distinction between His followers and those who aren't His followers here. That's not the point.

Jesus isn't saying that if we find a hungry Christian we have to feed them, but if we find a hungry Jewish person we can just let them starve.

Jesus still expects us to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, etc. That's still His commandment. And yes, we will be judged by how we treat the least of these, not just the least of our fellow believers, but every single neighbor. That means everyone.

Love everybody. Period. Full stop. No debate.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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And Jesus is still identifying with the lowly. "These brothers" refer to who? Jesus has told us, the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the stranger, the sick, etc. Jesus doesn't make a distinction between His followers and those who aren't His followers here. That's not the point.

Jesus isn't saying that if we find a hungry Christian we have to feed them, but if we find a hungry Jewish person we can just let them starve.

Jesus still expects us to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, etc. That's still His commandment. And yes, we will be judged by how we treat the least of these, not just the least of our fellow believers, but every single neighbor. That means everyone.

Love everybody. Period. Full stop. No debate.
At the final judgment, when the goats have been determined and separated out, Jesus will not be referring to the goats/Christ rejectors/unbelievers, whether impoverished or rich, as his brothers.
 
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prodromos

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James 5:16 prescribes confession to one another, which grammatically is not the entire congregation.
εξομολογεισθε αλληλοις τα παραπτωματα και ευχεσθε υπερ αλληλων οπως ιαθητε πολυ ισχυει δεησις δικαιου ενεργουμενη​
Please show me where the word "ONE" is in the Greek text.
 
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prodromos

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I am glad you asked the entire church has done many things and when their unity is threatened, an ecumenical council of bishops would be called by the pope to settle the matter.
Historically false. None of the early councils were called by the Bishop of Rome.
 
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Clare73

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εξομολογεισθε αλληλοις τα παραπτωματα και ευχεσθε υπερ αλληλων οπως ιαθητε πολυ ισχυει δεησις δικαιου ενεργουμενη​
Please show me where the word "ONE" is in the Greek text.
"An-other" (αλληλοις) is one other, not many others.
 
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prodromos

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"An-other" (αλληλοις) is one other, not many others.
The ending is plural, not singular. Your understanding of the English expression "one another" is wrong also. It is also understood in a plural sense, not in the singular as you claim it to be.
 
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Clare73

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εξομολογεισθε αλληλοις τα παραπτωματα και ευχεσθε υπερ αλληλων οπως ιαθητε πολυ ισχυει δεησις δικαιου ενεργουμενη​
Please show me where the word "ONE" is in the Greek text.
The ending is plural, not singular.
So it's a plural word in Greek.
Your understanding of the English expression "one another" is wrong also. It
is also understood in a plural sense, not in the singular as you claim it to be.
So "one another" is plural in English.

Have you not just answered your own question of why "one" is added in the English text?
"An-other is only one," while "one another" is plural. . .

So why did you challenge "one" being added in the English text?
 
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