One cannot believe OSAS without believing in 5 points Calvinism

Albion · Feb 16, 2019

Why don't we just answer the question by saying 1) God can choose to save anyone he wants to -- or not-- since none of us deserves salvation on our own merits. If we deserved it, that would change things, but we do not. We are sinners.

And 2) as for this being a denial of our free will, its not a denial of free will to give some of us the gift of a lifetime, the one thing that man throughout history has wished he could have--a life after death. Any other way of describing the situation is just double talk.

Not David · Feb 16, 2019

SeventyOne said:
When we are born again we are told that we are not our own, but bought with a price. At that point, free will actually becomes irrelevant to the topic because we are property of another. We can't simply choose to change ownership back to ourselves.

So if you choose to abandon the faith then you still remain in Christ?

Not David · Feb 16, 2019

Albion said:
Well, does he remove your free will when you become a Christian? That isn't what Calvinism says.

But you are speaking, I take it, only of the one possible decision which is to renounce God at some time thereafter, right? But what is so logical about wanting to retain the free will to choose hell for all eternity?

If you read what I have been posting, I am talking about the non-Calvinist OSAS.

Zetetica · Feb 16, 2019

David Cabrera said:
Why does God remove your free will when you become a Christian? Also if that's the case, then God would have had predestined you to do so.

God does not remove our free will in life, ever. Else, we’d not be so able to fall into temptation. Else, we’d not do self-serving things. Else, we’d not need to pray the full armour of The Lord over ourselves to protect us from the attacks and sting of the enemy.

Not David · Feb 16, 2019

nonaeroterraqueous said:
OSAS is the Arminian interpretation of the verses usually cited by Calvinists to support their doctrine. I agree that the OSAS interpretation is patently illogical, and even dangerous. However, one can believe in it without believing in the Calvinistic doctrines, so long as one can accept the logical incongruity.

And then...the third option is just to ignore those passages of scripture, entirely, giving rise to a belief that salvation can be lost (in which case the matter of eternity makes damnation a sure inevitability).

Well, one can believe whatever one wants, but as you said, it can be illogical.

Not David · Feb 16, 2019

Zetetica said:
God does not remove our free will in life, ever. Else, we’d not be so able to fall into temptation. Else, we’d not do self-serving things. Else, we’d not need to pray the full armour of The Lord over ourselves to protect us from the attacks and sting of the enemy.

Do you believe in Once Saved Always Saved?

Hammster · Feb 16, 2019

David Cabrera said:
So if you choose to abandon the faith then you still remain in Christ?

The regenerate man will not abandon the faith. He is a new creature. The old has gone and the new has come.

Zetetica · Feb 16, 2019

David Cabrera said:
Do you believe in Once Saved Always Saved?

Nope.

SeventyOne · Feb 16, 2019

David Cabrera said:
So if you choose to abandon the faith then you still remain in Christ?

What makes you think you are even able to abandon the faith if free will doesn't come into play?

In order for one to abandon the faith who is filled with the Spirit requires the Spirit to deny Himself, and we are told explicitly in 2 Timothy 2:13 that even if we are faithless, He remains faithful precisely because He cannot deny Himself.

Not David · Feb 16, 2019

SeventyOne said:
What makes you think you are even able to abandon the faith if free will doesn't come into play?

In order for one to abandon the faith who is filled with the Spirit requires the Spirit to deny Himself, and we are told explicitly in 2 Timothy 2:13 that even if we are faithless, He remains faithful precisely because He cannot deny Himself.

So you are still saved even if you leave the faith?

SeventyOne · Feb 16, 2019

David Cabrera said:
So you are still saved even if you leave the faith?

That's the same question I just answered.

Not David · Feb 16, 2019

SeventyOne said:
That's the same question I just answered.

I just understood that the Holy Spirit doesn't destroy our free will but he does it at the same time.

Neogaia777 · Feb 16, 2019

If we do have choices, it would be like the choices within a video game world or simulated reality, the choices are only within the game, and we are only within the game (right now)... They would have been designed or created within the game, but only within the game, and the borders, rules and boundaries and parameters, limits of those choices, within the game, ect...

God Bless!

SeventyOne · Feb 16, 2019

David Cabrera said:
I just understood that the Holy Spirit doesn't destroy our free will but he does it at the same time.

Paul is quite clear that we are not our own, but bought by Christ. We are both a freeman in the Lord, but also a bondservant. I don't know where you got this idea that one could just simply walk away. You would have to purchase yourself back from the Lord. Are you able to pay a price equal to or greater than His own blood?

1 Corinthians 6:19-20: Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

1 Corinthians 7:22-23: For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ. You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men.

St_Worm2 · Feb 16, 2019

David Cabrera said:
So if you choose to abandon the faith then you still remain in Christ?

Hi again David, OSAS Arminians (in a similar way to Perseverance of the Faith Calvinists) believe that someone who is truly saved will never fully "abandon" the faith, because they believe that, once they are 'changed' by God/caused to be born again .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17, 21, God preserves them in the faith and sees them safely through this life to be with Him in Glory in the next life .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25 cf 1 John 1:8-2:2.

If someone truly "abandons" the Christian faith, then we believe that they were never truly Christians/never "born again" to begin with .. e.g. 1 John 2:19, even though many may spend their entire lives in the church, fully believing that they are/have always been Christians, and may even appear to be "super" Christians to others because of some of the things that they do .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23; Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43. (nevertheless, at the Judgment, Jesus will tell them plainly, "I never knew you", even though they claimed to have done great works in His very Name).

Scary stuff, yes?

Yours and His,
David

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter XVII. Of the Perseverance of the Saints

Section I.–They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

Section II.–This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own freewill, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them; and t.he nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

Section III.–Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalence of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their perseverance, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalise others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.
.

Jonaitis · Feb 16, 2019

David Cabrera said:
I am sure some might disagree with me but it is illogical that one will always remain a Christian without accepting double predestination, unlimited atonement, etc.

I think you meant to say Limited Atonement, but everything you said is true.

Not David · Feb 16, 2019

SeventyOne said:
Paul is quite clear that we are not our own, but bought by Christ. We are both a freeman in the Lord, but also a bondservant. I don't know where you got this idea that one could just simply walk away. You would have to purchase yourself back from the Lord. Are you able to pay a price equal to or greater than His own blood?

1 Corinthians 6:19-20: Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

1 Corinthians 7:22-23: For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ. You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men.

"Do not become bondservants of men" sounds like we have an option, and God does not forces us to stay or not with him unless you believe we were predestined since the beginning, if you don't, then your argument is illogical.

Not David · Feb 16, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
Hi again David, OSAS Arminians (in a similar way to Perseverance of the Faith Calvinists) believe that someone who is truly saved will never fully "abandon" the faith, because they believe that, once they are 'changed' by God/caused to be born again .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17, 21, God preserves them in the faith and sees them safely through this life to be with Him in Glory in the next life .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25 cf 1 John 1:8-2:2.

If someone truly "abandons" the Christian faith, then we believe that they were never truly Christians/never "born again" to begin with .. e.g. 1 John 2:19, even though many may spend their entire lives in the church, fully believing that they are/have always been Christians, and may even appear to be "super" Christians to others because of some of the things that they do .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23; Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43. (nevertheless, at the Judgment, Jesus will tell them plainly, "I never knew you", even though they claimed to have done great works in His very Name).

Scary stuff, yes?

Yours and His,
David

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter XVII. Of the Perseverance of the Saints

Section I.–They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

Section II.–This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own freewill, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them; and t.he nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

Section III.–Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalence of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their perseverance, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalise others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.
.

As I said, it makes sense in a Calvinist way but it's ridiculous in an Arminian way if you believe one can "choose to accept God".

St_Worm2 · Feb 16, 2019

David Cabrera said:
So if you choose to abandon the faith then you still remain in Christ?

Of those who are saved (die in a state of grace), do you believe that any of these will (or even can) choose to abandon/reject/lose their faith in the age to come?

Assuming you do not, why do you believe that?

Thanks!

--David

The Righterzpen · Feb 16, 2019

I think it may be beneficial to ask the question; what exactly is "free will".

My understanding of Calvin's explanation of what I would call "doctrines of grace" theology, is that the will is not free as it pertains to choosing God, on account of being dead in trespass and sin. Dead men don't have a will. So in the spiritual sense, that application fits perfectly.

Now I've often given this parable about what it's like to become awakened by the Spirit of God. You're walking around in this pitch black house your entire life. You're tripping over the furniture, falling down the stairs, bumping into things because you can't seem to remember where the snares are; so you keep making the same mistakes. Then all the sudden someone comes along and cuts the lights on. All the sudden, you can see. You see where the furniture is, you see where the stairs are etc.

Now would it make logical sense for someone to say. "Great I love that I can see now. Turn the lights back off, so I can go back to tripping over the furniture; even though I really don't want to trip over the furniture and I'm tired of tripping over the furniture."

To truly be grateful you can see and want to choose to go back into darkness is beyond illogical. I wouldn't even say it's insane because even to the insane, their logic makes some sort of sense to them. And even the sane can often understand insane logic, although they can see where that logic doesn't line up to reality.

Nobody who really sees and understands would willingly go back to darkness. That's ultimately what Hebrews 10:26 means. (if we sin there is no more sacrifice) So in that context, God's sovereignty does not violate human will, in regards to salvation. And this is where the term "irresistible grace" comes from. It's irresistible because man can not supersede God's power, but it's also irresistible on account of its attractiveness.

Now obviously entities in this creation have wills that are independent of each other, as well as the capacity to change their minds and decide on a different course of action.

Now how does God's will interact among the actions taken by the creatures can be a question totally outside of the question related to redemption. This creation is not a clock in the sense of God planned it all out, put it together, wound it up and let it go. That would be the "robot" analogy. Every thing operates as designed and does not waver from the established pattern. That's in essence a computer program that's trying to calculate Pi. LOL

So God being a living entity interplaying with a host of other living entities; all of whom have their own wills. Granted the game is a bit unfair because One of the players has power, knowledge and presence to counter the decisions and actions He choses to counter of the wills and actions of the others. This obviously does not make Him responsible for their bad choices.

Keep in mind too that "the wages of sin...." is something earned based on what is done. An entity that does not exist yet, can not earn wages for labor it has not performed. It only earns those wages as a result of performing the labor. This is why there is no such thing as "double predestination".

God as a living entity who is interceding in "real time" shows forth to entities who end up earning the wages of their sin, that He is indeed real and operating in this world. This is what Romans 1:8 means. They "hold the truth in unrighteousness". They know the truth and His wrath is revealed to them. And this is why on judgement day no-one can stand before God and say "I didn't know." Now, they may refuse to admit to you that they know; but they know! That verse is pretty clear that they know.

Now Romans 9:22, I'd have to do a more through word study on to totally understand what "vessels fitted for destruction" conveys; but I can say just from a quick glimpse of the two Greek words it's made of; which means "to adjust" "according to".

Now to understand who is doing the "fitting to destruction", as we now know "the wages of sin..." is based on action taken by the entity. Is it correctly interpreting that verse to say the "fitting to destruction" is an action being performed by God? Not when He's back earlier in the verse being "long-suffering".

So yes, to say OSAS to those not believing in predestination unto election; does not logically follow the Arminian "free will" doctrine. Yet understand that Arminian original idea was that one could lose their salvation. Only in the past maybe 100 years has OSAS become predominant in that camp. And Arminianism has been around a lot longer than that.

One cannot believe OSAS without believing in 5 points Calvinism

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