once saved always saved

[BobRyan]

OK - so back to the thread subject

Gal 5:4 "you have fallen from grace"

Fall Away does not mean lose salvation, it means to lose faith

In Galatians 5:4 the text speaks to the point "you have fallen from grace".

IN Ephesians 2:8-10 "you are save by grace through faith.

Your response is that in Gal 5:4 the issue is falling from faith. The text says "fallen from Grace" - Ephesians 2 says you need both when it comes to salvation.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Lindas Place]

1Cor 9 -- "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified"

in Christ,

Bob

What's the prize...? salvation is not a prize, it's a gift. Rewards in heaven have nothing to do with salvation...

1 Corinthians 9:27
27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple,I tell you the truth,
he will certainly not lose his reward." Matthew 10:42

his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; He himself will be saved. but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3 13-15

 

[BobRyan]

OK - so back to the thread subject

In Romans 11 "you should fear - you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them neither will he spare you. But God is able to graft them in again if they do not continue in unbelief"

The Jews are no longer saved, just
because they are Jews... They must accept Jesus... that is the gospel... However, if they do believe in Jesus they will be saved... Nothing about OSAS here... those who reject Jesus were never saved...

In the days of Paul - there were Jews living - who lived before the death of Christ. Christ never argues that no Jew was saved until after the cross.

In fact in Heb 11 we have a long list of Jews saved before the cross.

The Romans 11 case deals with individuals from "among the Jews and the gentiles" that were making choices.

Not all the gentiles were saved after the cross and not all the Jews were lost before the cross as we see in the case of Timothy and the saints of Hebrews 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1Cor 9 -- "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified"

in Christ,

What's the prize...? salvation is not a prize, it's a gift. Rewards in heaven have nothing to do with salvation...

1 Corinthians 9:27
27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

In 1Cor 9 Paul explains that the Gospel prize is in fact salvation.

[FONT=&quot]1Cor 9[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may [/FONT][FONT=&quot]by all means save some.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I do all things for the sake of the gospel,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] so that I may become a [/FONT][FONT=&quot]fellow partaker[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of it[/FONT][FONT=&quot].
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I box in such a way, as not beating the air;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
27 but [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified[/FONT]

And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple,I tell you the truth,
he will certainly not lose his reward." Matthew 10:42

his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; He himself will be saved. but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3 13-15

I agree that in Matt 10 the issue is rewards and in 1Cor 3 the issue is the a quality of the message of a given evangelist.

But in 1Cor 9 "The buffet my body and make it my slave" is not about the quality of his message.

It is about the "Pressing on" experience just as we see in Phil 3 "to attain to the resurrection of the dead" in Christ at the First Resurrection == where "The dead in Christ rise first". It is about the perseverance of the saints. Those who are saved - who are born again choosing to persevere.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Lindas Place]

In Galatians 5:4 the text speaks to the point "you have fallen from grace".

IN Ephesians 2:8-10 "you are save by grace through faith.

Your response is that in Gal 5:4 the issue is falling from faith. The text says "fallen from Grace" - Ephesians 2 says you need both when it comes to salvation.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith"

in Christ,

Bob

Those who do not believe OSAS have fallen from grace... because they add works and/or law as a requirement to keep saved... but that does not mean they lose salvation... John fell away on his death bed... yet he is not in hell... you are interjecting things into the text that simply is not there...

 

[FredVB]

Could someone else in this thread please show me where Fred posted verses that I am ignoring?

John 3:16-17 have been said before, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. If you knew scripture you could recognize when it is quoted. You missed it when I referred to 2 Peter 3:9.

 

[Lindas Place]

OK - so back to the thread subject

In Romans 11 "you should fear - you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them neither will he spare you. But God is able to graft them in again if they do not continue in unbelief"






In the days of Paul - there were Jews living - who lived before the death of Christ. Christ never argues that no Jew was saved until after the cross.

In fact in Heb 11 we have a long list of Jews saved before the cross.

The Romans 11 case deals with individuals from "among the Jews and the gentiles" that were making choices.

Not all the gentiles were saved after the cross and not all the Jews were lost before the cross as we see in the case of Timothy and the saints of Hebrews 11.

in Christ,

Bob

it say’s they stand by faith… which is encouraging…

Salvation was offered to the Jews (Gods chosen people) all Jews were in the olive tree, the Jews that were broken off were unbelievers, yet they were in the olive tree…

Now salvation has come to the Gentiles, all Gentiles are in the olive tree… and have the same opportunity to be saved by faith… only the unbelievers will be broken off… this is not referring to salvation, it is referring to {salvation has come to the Gentiles}, … all Gentiles, Gentiles can now be saved … that does not mean that all Jews or all Gentiles have been saved… the Jews who were broken off had never had faith in Jesus….

20 Granted. But they (the unbelieving Jews) were broken off because of unbelief, and you (the believing Gentiles) stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches (for unbelief), he will not spare you (for unbelief) either.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

 

[savedfromdistruction]

is this teaching true?
a man i used to talk to said that the once saved always saved teaching is baloney

Yes it is true, but also true is that once a person is saved they never go back.
1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
1John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

 

[Publius]

John 3:16-17 have been said before, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. If you knew scripture you could recognize when it is quoted

Ah, so you're down to childish ad homs now?

I guess that's where we part ways.

 

[FredVB]

Ah, so you're down to childish ad homs now?

I guess that's where we part ways.

And as you would not acknowledge scripture showing basis for what I said that you suggested I did not have, I have no reason to dignify this discussion with my further responses. But it stands that Yahweh God is great in mercy in what is said of him in the.Bible, and grace available for all is consistent with that.

 

[Publius]

And as you would not acknowledge scripture showing basis for what I said that you suggested I did not have, I have no reason to dignify this discussion with my further responses.

If all you're capable of is childish ad homs, then we all thank you for not "dignifying" this discussion.

 

[BobRyan]

In Galatians 5:4 the text speaks to the point "you have fallen from grace".

IN Ephesians 2:8-10 "you are save by grace through faith.

Your response is that in Gal 5:4 the issue is falling from faith. The text says "fallen from Grace" - Ephesians 2 says you need both when it comes to salvation.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith"

Those who do not believe OSAS have fallen from grace... because they add works and/or law as a requirement to keep saved...

1. If that statement were true - it would disprove OSAS because you would still have the fall from grace.

2. Galatians 5 says nothing at all about "if you do not believe OSAS you have fallen from grace".

3. There is no mention at all in scripture of "John falling away on his death bed". He sends his disciples to Christ with a question instead of simply seeking after another Messiah.

you are interjecting the idea of fallen from grace into a question that is asked - but the Bible does not support that.

4. There is no text in all of scripture saying that the saved condition is the "fallen from grace" condition. There is text in all of scripture that says that the saved state is the "Shipwreck of faith" state.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

it say’s they stand by faith… which is encouraging…

Salvation was offered to the Jews (Gods chosen people) all Jews were in the olive tree, the Jews that were broken off were unbelievers

If "only believers" were in the olive tree then all Jews were not in.

If believers that became unbelievers were "broken off" then how nice that "He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief". Clearly only the believers are "in" because that is the only way to be grafted in.

If such is the case then "you stand only by your faith -- you should fear - for if he did not spare them neither will He spare you" - is a warning about real life -- a real warning to the saved.

Now salvation has come to the Gentiles, all Gentiles are in the olive tree…

Not according to the text. Paul says that "BOTH Jews AND Gentiles are in" but does not say that "All gentiles are in" the olive tree or that "All jews are in".

Your doctrine makes being IN the olive tree being the lost state (since you surely must agree that not all gentiles are saved) and it makes being out of the oive tree ALSO the lost state.

That doctrine destroys the entire sense of the text.

Matt 18 presents the "forgiveness revoked" teaching just as does the entire chapter of Ezekiel 18. Romans 11 provides the "you should fear... you stand only by your faith.. if He did not spare them - neither will he spare you" compliment to those chapters.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Hentenza]

In Galatians 5:4 the text speaks to the point "you have fallen from grace".

IN Ephesians 2:8-10 "you are save by grace through faith.

Your response is that in Gal 5:4 the issue is falling from faith. The text says "fallen from Grace" - Ephesians 2 says you need both when it comes to salvation.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith"

The assumption made here is that one has to be in grace to fall from it which is not what the text is telling us. Paul’s whole purpose in writing this passage was to issue a wake-up call to those members of the Galatian churches who were being tempted to forsake the evangelical message Paul had proclaimed in favor of another gospel of that legal obedience. Paul here repeated and intensified his warning by pointing out that all those who seek to be justified by law are in reality alienated from Christ and fallen away from grace. The word for “alienated” (katargein) means literally “to cut off” or “make ineffective.” Paul used the same word earlier in Gal 3:17 to indicate that the Mosaic law did not “set aside” or nullify the former covenant and promise God made with Abraham. Paul was saying that those who had renounced that way of justification God has established and, further, had become debtors to fulfill perfectly all of the commandments of the law had been “severed from Christ”, that is, removed from his sphere of operation and “hence completely cut off from relations with him.”

The Judaizers and their disciples did not for a moment believe that the imposition of circumcision involved their alienation from Christ. Instead, they saw it as an enhancement, a necessary additive required for the true possession of salvation. What they advocated was a Christianity by amalgamation, a mingling of the grace of Christ with the merit of works. Yet, as Calvin put it so well, “Whoever wants to have a half-Christ loses the whole.”

To be cut off from Christ in this sense is to have “fallen away from grace.” Luther interpreted this expression to mean “You are no longer in the realm of grace” and illustrated it in the following way:

For just as someone on a ship is drowned regardless of the part of the ship from which he falls into the sea, so someone who falls away from grace cannot help perishing. The desire to be justified by the law, therefore, is shipwreck; it is exposure to the surest peril of eternal death. What can be more insane and wicked than to want to lose the grace and favor of God and to retain the law of Moses, whose retention makes it necessary for you to accumulate wrath and every other evil for yourself? Now if those who seek to be justified on the basis of the moral law fall away from grace, where, I ask, will those fall who, in their self-righteousness, seek to be justified on the basis of their traditions and vows? To the lowest depths of hell!

Contrary to the Arminian or "works salvation"(as you propose) interpretation of this text, Paul did not here contemplate the loosing of salvation by a truly regenerated believer. He was writing to Christian churches that were founded on the doctrines of grace but that were in danger of forsaking that sound doctrinal bedrock for a theology that can only lead to ruin.

 

[Lindas Place]

If "only believers" were in the olive tree then all Jews were not in.

If believers that became unbelievers were "broken off" then how nice that "He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief". Clearly only the believers are "in" because that is the only way to be grafted in.

If such is the case then "you stand only by your faith -- you should fear - for if he did not spare them neither will He spare you" - is a warning about real life -- a real warning to the saved.



Not according to the text. Paul says that "BOTH Jews AND Gentiles are in" but does not say that "All gentiles are in" the olive tree or that "All jews are in".

Your doctrine makes being IN the olive tree being the lost state (since you surely must agree that not all gentiles are saved) and it makes being out of the oive tree ALSO the lost state.

That doctrine destroys the entire sense of the text.

Matt 18 presents the "forgiveness revoked" teaching just as does the entire chapter of Ezekiel 18. Romans 11 provides the "you should fear... you stand only by your faith.. if He did not spare them - neither will he spare you" compliment to those chapters.

in Christ,

Bob

Romans 11 is about the Gentiles being used, for a time, to bring the gospel to the world. It does not say certain Jews lost salvation for unbelief. Unbelievers NEVER HAD SALVATION. As a people, they lost their position as the ones bringing the gospel to the world. Gentiles can be broken off and replaced again by the jews. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:20-22 (KJV)

Most importantly, you missed this verse....
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 11:29 (KJV)

 

[FredVB]

Romans 11 is about the Gentiles being used, for a time, to bring the gospel to the world. It does not say certain Jews lost salvation for unbelief. Unbelievers NEVER HAD SALVATION. As a people, they lost their position as the ones bringing the gospel to the world. Gentiles can be broken off and replaced again by the jews. Most importantly, you missed this verse....
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 11:29 (KJV)

Thanks for explaining it that way. It was insightful. And uncertainty with some about salvation is around because as said it is true that unbelievers never had salvation. Some few seemed to be converted to Christ and their later turning lends to that uncertainty, but they are those who never had the essential faith in Christ with repentance who came in among us of whom we were warned. But God does not change his mind. What you showed involves how Israel is used. And Romans 11:29 in my version shows gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, which expresses well what is meant. And so also those who in reality come to Christ and are in him are secure and never lost again as salvation is his work, and we are changed which involves his discipline, we are assured in Romans 8:28-39 for one place in the Bible. And there are many. But God has grace made available to all, according to his compassion, even though many do not come to him on his merciful terms, 2 Peter 3:9.

Yahweh God is transcendent and beyond time and the limitations of the universe, and has foreknowledge inclusive of who would respond to his grace with the essential faith for salvation which is in Christ, this is not the same as predestination. But the term predestination occurs still in the Bible, I can refer to Romans 8:29-30, those that love Yahweh God are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son, and Ephesians 1:5, predestined to adoption as sons.
We and all are yet accountable for our actions.

 

[Skala]

is this teaching true?
a man i used to talk to said that the once saved always saved teaching is baloney

The question is not can a true Christian walk away from Jesus. The real question is, can Jesus lose a true Christian?

The answer to this question depends on whether you think salvation is man centered or God centered. IF you view salvation as God's work for His own glory, and you believe that God always keeps his promises, then it will be impossible for you to conclude that Jesus can lose a Christian, because God promises to keep us until the end. The Bible says that God is working salvation in us, unto completion. Can God fail to do that? The answer is no. God cannot fail.

There are times when professing (key word) Christians fall away from the faith. But when this happens, it isn't that a true Christian fell from Christ, it's that he was never a true Christian to begin with, as John says:

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

This matches what Jesus in several places. One place is the parable of the sower. He said some people are "stony ground" or "bad soil" and when the seed is planted, it springs up temporarily, but eventually it withers away and dies. Also, Jesus taught that there are tares among the wheat

So there are people who claim to be Christians, that really aren't. They always fall away from the faith. But they aren't losing their salvation - they never had salvation to begin with.

The truly saved Christians will always believe in Christ until their death, and thus, will never lose their salvation.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Seeing a lot on here about if people are truly saved they will not lose their salvation, but doesn't that mean that someone can be falsely saved, or even perhaps they were not saved in full? Wouldn't that mean that Jesus didn't secure them completely? Didn't Paul say in Galatians that he personally saw those people come to Christ and was wondering how they could be in danger of losing that salvation and faith? So was Paul fooled by people he knew claiming to come to Christ when they really didn't? Just seems to me the discussion point of "truly saved Christians" will not lose their salvation, when that statement just seems to suggest that Jesus can not fully save some people who come to Him in faith.

 

[Publius]

Seeing a lot on here about if people are truly saved they will not lose their salvation, but doesn't that mean that someone can be falsely saved

Yes. The Bible talks quite a bit about false converts and pews are full of them.

Wouldn't that mean that Jesus didn't secure them completely?

No. Jesus secures completely. But because someone is a false convert, that means they're not in Christ.

Didn't Paul say in Galatians that he personally saw those people come to Christ and was wondering how they could be in danger of losing that salvation and faith?

No.

Just seems to me the discussion point of "truly saved Christians" will not lose their salvation, when that statement just seems to suggest that Jesus can not fully save some people who come to Him in faith.

If someone is saved, then he is saved completely and once and for all. If somebody is a false convert, then he is not in Christ, has not been called by Christ, has not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, has not been forgiven, has not been adopted, and has not been saved. He is still on the outside looking in.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Yes. The Bible talks quite a bit about false converts and pews are full of them.



No. Jesus secures completely. But because someone is a false convert, that means they're not in Christ.



No.



If someone is saved, then he is saved completely and once and for all. If somebody is a false convert, then he is not in Christ, has not been called by Christ, has not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, has not been forgiven, has not been adopted, and has not been saved. He is still on the outside looking in.

Well Paul does say in Galatians that he preached to them, and he says they were in Christ, so my statement is correct. If Paul didn't see the Galatian audience as truly saved, why waste his time warning them they could "fall from grace"? (Galatians 5:4)

As for the rest of the discussion, arguing over the scriptures does no one any good, and is discouraged in scriptures, so I will not join any further. God bless!