once saved always saved

[Lindas Place]

Those He draws.



On their own? Nobody.

John 12:32
32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

 

[Publius]

John 12:32
32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

He said this to show by what kind of death He was going to die.

 

[Lindas Place]

He said this to show by what kind of death He was going to die.

That does not change the text... if you want to challenge Jesus words "draw all men" you can do that... but you cannot change the text.

God draws all men to Himself.

John 12:32
32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

 

[Publius]

That does not change the text

Actually, that is the text. You conveniently forgot to post several key verses. That was one of them.

if you want to challenge Jesus words "draw all men" you can do that

How about if I want to challenge your claims about Jesus' words and your disregard for the analogy of scripture?

God draws all men to Himself.

Then what about those the Bible says God does not draw? Are you a Universalist?

John 12:32

32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

He said this to show by what kind of death He was going to die.

 

[BobRyan]

That does not change the text... if you want to challenge Jesus words "draw all men" you can do that... but you cannot change the text.

God draws all men to Himself.

John 12:32
32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

Suppose we had a Bible that read "God so loved the World -- yes really!"
in John 3:16?

Or how about this in 1John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins - and not for our sins only but for the sins of the Whole World! - yes really!".

Even the text that you point out above "I will draw all mankind unto Me" - could have the "Yes really!" added.

But would that make a difference?

Inquiring minds want to know.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Lindas Place]

Actually, that is the text. You conveniently forgot to post several key verses. That was one of them.



How about if I want to challenge your claims about Jesus' words and your disregard for the analogy of scripture?

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Then what about those the Bible says God does not draw? Are you a Universalist?



He said this to show by what kind of death He was going to die.

The surrounding verse’s do not change the fact that Jesus said, He will draw all men to Himself… and no, the text does not teach universalism. There are no contradiction in the text, so present the scriptures that you believe contradict Jesus statement “draw all men” and we can discuss them.

 

[Publius]

The surrounding verse’s do not change the fact that Jesus said

Actually, the verse you keep ignoring does and the analogy of scripture does, too.

He will draw all men to Himself… and no, the text does not teach universalism.

I know the text doesn't, but your misrepresentation of the text does.

There are no contradiction in the text, so present the scriptures that you believe contradict Jesus statement “draw all men” and we can discuss them.

There are no scriptures that contradict Jesus' statement. However, a few verses that contradict your misrepresentation of Jesus' statement are Matthew 22:14, Mattthew 24:22, 2 Peter 1:10, and Rev 17:14.

 

[Lindas Place]

Suppose we had a Bible that read But would that make a difference?

Inquiring minds want to know.

in Christ,

Bob

If we stick to what the text actually say’s we will be in agreement, with Christ… the what if’s would be confusion. So how does the surrounding verse's change the fact that Jesus said, He will draw all men to Himself...?

 

[FredVB]

God has not offered the unregenerate the gift of eternal life with Him.

There was back and forth with the good news for the redeemed stated on one side and judgment on the unregenerate stated on the other, neither position being a disagreement in just that. But then there was that last thing saying Yahweh does not have any grace for some to be restored from sin. But we have been told in his word that he is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to him, through his redemption. All are given some chance. Certainly some do not come to this redemption, this is not from absence of Yahweh's grace, it is the hardening of many of their own hearts, to resisting the drawing to him, in preference to doing all they can in their own will.

 

[Publius]

All are given some chance.

So what do you do with all of the verses that say that God does not call or elect all men?

 

[Lindas Place]

Actually, the verse you keep ignoring does and the analogy of scripture does, too.



I know the text doesn't, but your misrepresentation of the text does.



There are no scriptures that contradict Jesus' statement. However, a few verses that contradict your misrepresentation of Jesus' statement are Matthew 22:14, Mattthew 24:22, 2 Peter 1:10, and Rev 17:14.

Let discuss them one at a time...

The Jews were chosen, yet many rejected Christ… so God invited, “draws” all men… the wedding clothes are Christ… we can’t enter the wedding without being clothed in Christ.

Matthew 22:14
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
Galatians 3:27
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

 

[FredVB]

So what do you do with all of the verses that say that God does not call or elect all men?

Any such verses tell me those certain are ones that have hardened themselves to him.

 

[BobRyan]

OK - so back to the thread subject

is this teaching true?
a man i used to talk to said that the once saved always saved teaching is baloney

In Matt 18 you have a parable illustrating the doctrine of forgiveness revoked - ending with the application by Christ "so shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not...".

In Romans 11 "you should fear - you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them neither will he spare you. But God is able to graft them in again if they do not continue in unbelief"

Gal 5:4 "you have fallen from grace"

1Cor 9 -- "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Publius]

Any such verses tell me those certain are ones that have hardened themselves to him.

So then, you just read your own understanding into the verse?

 

[FredVB]

So then, you just read your own understanding into the verse?

No, not at all, but it is that you ignore verses that are basis for what I said, which are established.

 

[Lindas Place]

OK - so back to the thread subject




In Matt 18 you have a parable illustrating the doctrine of forgiveness revoked - ending with the application by Christ "so shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not...".

in Christ,

Bob

This certainly is not a description of someone who is OSAS…. If anything I would relate it to those who do not believe in OSAS… though they have been forgiven of their sin debt, they believe the King will throw them in prison and therefore treat others accordingly. Since they do not believe the good news... they will not be saved. OSAS believes the gospel, knows they have been forgiven of past, present and future sins, knows they are saved and treat other accordingly. OSAS is not unmerciful.


The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26 “The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’
30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

 

[Publius]

No, not at all, but it is that you ignore verses that are basis for what I said, which are established.

Could someone else in this thread please show me where Fred posted verses that I am ignoring?

 

[Lindas Place]

OK - so back to the thread subject

In Romans 11 "you should fear - you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them neither will he spare you. But God is able to graft them in again if they do not continue in unbelief"


in Christ,

Bob

The Jews are no longer saved, just because they are Jews... They must accept Jesus... that is the gospel... However, if they do believe in Jesus they will be saved... Nothing about OSAS here... those who reject Jesus were never saved...

 

[Lindas Place]

OK - so back to the thread subject

Gal 5:4 "you have fallen from grace"


in Christ,

Bob

Fall Away does not mean lose salvation, it means to lose faith and notice Jesus reaction to them falling away...

if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. 2 Tim 2:13

PETER “FELL AWAY”

Peter declared, "Even if all fall away, I will not." "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice you yourself will disown me three times." Mark 14:29-30

All THE DISIPLES “FELL AWAY”

"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: " 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.' But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee." Mark 14:27-28

GALATIONS “FELL AWAY”

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:4

JOHN THE BAPTIST’S “FELL AWAY” ON HIS DEATH BED

When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples to ask him, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" Jesus replied, "Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me." Matthew 11:2-6

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 18 you have a parable illustrating the doctrine of forgiveness revoked - ending with the application by Christ "so shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not...".

In Romans 11 "you should fear - you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them neither will he spare you. But God is able to graft them in again if they do not continue in unbelief"

Gal 5:4 "you have fallen from grace"

1Cor 9 -- "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified"

This (Matt 18) certainly is not a description of someone who is OSAS…. If anything I would relate it to those who do not believe in OSAS… though they have been forgiven of their sin debt, they believe the King will throw them in prison and therefore treat others accordingly. Since they do not believe the good news... they will not be saved. OSAS believes the gospel, knows they have been forgiven of past, present and future sins, knows they are saved and treat other accordingly.

Agreed. In Matt 18 the King said "I forgave you all that debt - should you not have also forgiven as you were forgiven".

In the teaching -- it is gratitude for real forgiveness really received in the full gratitude of it - that was supposed to "motivate".

The King does not say "I failed to actually forgive you -- and so not having experience forgiveness you had no basis to forgive others".

You make a good point that Matt 18 is not an example of OSAS. But the teaching of Matt 18 has strong ramifications about the topic.

in Christ,

Bob