once saved always saved

[greatdivide46]

Sorry, I should have said... it's listed right here in my list... half way down..

Greatdivide46... So we agree on these things…

Salvation is by grace, through faith, not by works.
Believers receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
God is on the throne.
God will not forsake.
The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Onlybygrace added these… which I agree, do you agree?

There will be evidence of salvation.
The Holy Spirit produces the Fruit of the Spirit
Faith is by definition is not fleeting
There are those who say they know Him that do not.

These you disagree with.

Eternal Life is not by definition a future time.
It is not temporary life in Christ, but eternal life in Christ.

I should have read your post better.

Yes, I agree with what Onlybygrace added. I'm not real sure about the third one though. I don't know if "non-fleetingness" (I made that word up ) is part of the definition of faith. Other than that I do agree.

 

[greatdivide46]

Are the scriptures the word of God?

Yes

Can scriptures lie?

No

Evidently they do.

Scriptures say no man, not even yourself, can take you out of the Father's hand.

I think that's an unwarranted extrapolation of what the verse actually says.

But you say you can.

That makes man more powerful than God.

No it doesn't. God's power is not dependent on whether or not I stay in His hand. If God's power depends on whether or not people remain with Him, then how can He be all-powerful?

 

[Lindas Place]

I should have read your post better.

Yes, I agree with what Onlybygrace added. I'm not real sure about the third one though. I don't know if "non-fleetingness" (I made that word up ) is part of the definition of faith. Other than that I do agree.

Ok, so you're unsure if Faith is not fleeting… Here’s the definition of faith…

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
　
What about these? Agree or disagree?

God draws all men to Himself.
Evidence for God will not change.
God will not change.
God will not lie.
God will not deny Himself.
There are those He will say He never knew.
Baptism is a command.
The text claims it is to be rightly divided.
There are no contradictions in the text.
Man is depraved.
The Blood of the Cross reconciles man to God.
　
Greatdivide46... So we agree on these things…

Salvation is by grace, through faith, not by works.
Believers receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
God is on the throne.
God will not forsake.
The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
There will be evidence of salvation.
The Holy Spirit produces the Fruit of the Spirit.
There are those who say they know Him that do not.

These you disagree with.

Eternal Life is not by definition a future time.
It is not temporary life in Christ, but eternal life in Christ.
Faith is by definition is not fleeting.

 

[Lindas Place]

Yes

No

I think that's an unwarranted extrapolation of what the verse actually says.

No it doesn't. God's power is not dependent on whether or not I stay in His hand. If God's power depends on whether or not people remain with Him, then how can He be all-powerful?

Looks like it depends on God's power...so if we don't stand firm, it's because God did not make us stand firm... His Word say's He will do it.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

1 Thessalonians 5
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and HE WILL DO IT.

 

[WinBySurrender]

Yes

No

I think that's an unwarranted extrapolation of what the verse actually says.

Of course you do, because otherwise you'd be forced to admit you're wrong. Well, you're wrong, whether you admit it or not. The word in John 10:28-30 couldn't be clearer that one cannot lose their salvation, yet you are haughty enough to say that is an "unwarranted extrapolaton." No sir, it is an unwarranted rejection of God's word on your part.

No it doesn't. God's power is not dependent on whether or not I stay in His hand. If God's power depends on whether or not people remain with Him, then how can He be all-powerful?

Read the words of Jesus' half-brother, relative to who keeps us.

Jude NASB
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
​

It isn't you who keeps you from stumbling, not is it up to you at all. The Greek for "able" is dunamai, "to have power"; "stumbling" is apaistos which literally makes the passage read, "Now to Him who has power to make you exempt from stumbling ... " The root of apaistos is ptaio, which means to become wretched. Surely you will not claim that you have more power than Christ? Because that is what would be required for you to break the bond that ties you to Christ and eternal life. That, combined with John 10:28-20, destroys any contention that salvation can be lost. Done here.

 

[greatdivide46]

Ok, so you're unsure if Faith is not fleeting… Here’s the definition of faith…

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

I agree. However, as I was trying to say, if this is the definition of faith, it says nothing at all about whether or not faith is fleeting. Personally I believe faith can be not fleeting. I just don't think it's by definition not fleeting.
　

What about these? Agree or disagree?

God draws all men to Himself.
Evidence for God will not change.
God will not change.
God will not lie.
God will not deny Himself.
There are those He will say He never knew.
Baptism is a command.
The text claims it is to be rightly divided.
There are no contradictions in the text.
Man is depraved.
The Blood of the Cross reconciles man to God.

I agree with all of these except that baptism is a command.

Greatdivide46... So we agree on these things…

Salvation is by grace, through faith, not by works.
Believers receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
God is on the throne.
God will not forsake.
The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
There will be evidence of salvation.
The Holy Spirit produces the Fruit of the Spirit.
There are those who say they know Him that do not.

Yep.

These you disagree with.

Eternal Life is not by definition a future time.
It is not temporary life in Christ, but eternal life in Christ.
Faith is by definition is not fleeting.

I agree with the first two. Eternal life is not by definition a future time. It includes the past as well since it is eternal.
And I agree that it's not temporary life in Christ, it's eternal life in Christ.

 

[greatdivide46]

Looks like it depends on God's power...so if we don't stand firm, it's because God did not make us stand firm... His Word say's He will do it.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

1 Thessalonians 5
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and HE WILL DO IT.

I agree. If we don't stand firm it's because God didn't make us stand firm. It is my belief that God desires for us to stand firm because that's what we want, not because He makes us stand firm. The translation I uses does not use the word "makes" in 1 Corinthians 1:21-22. It uses the word "establishes." So, if we don't stand firm it's not because of the weakness of God's power. It's because of God's willingness to allow us free will. Sometimes that takes more power that simply forcing people to do something.

 

[Lindas Place]

I agree. However, as I was trying to say, if this is the definition of faith, it says nothing at all about whether or not faith is fleeting. Personally I believe faith can be not fleeting. I just don't think it's by definition not fleeting.

If our faith is based on the word of God it won't flee, because the evidence, the word of God, does not change... The ONLY way a person could claim faith is fleeting is if they stated the evidence for it changed.

 

[Lindas Place]

I agree. If we don't stand firm it's because God didn't make us stand firm. It is my belief that God desires for us to stand firm because that's what we want, not because He makes us stand firm. The translation I uses does not use the word "makes" in 1 Corinthians 1:21-22. It uses the word "establishes." So, if we don't stand firm it's not because of the weakness of God's power. It's because of God's willingness to allow us free will. Sometimes that takes more power that simply forcing people to do something.

So who is getting the glory for the work of salvation?

Holy Sovereign Creator God, Who demonstrated His love, grace and mercy thru His finished work on the cross?
Or
Totally depraved man, incapable of truly repenting from sin and believing in Christ without God first bringing him to Himself ?

 

[greatdivide46]

If our faith is based on the word of God it won't flee, because the evidence, the word of God, does not change... The ONLY way a person could claim faith is fleeting is if they stated the evidence for it changed.

I agree that our faith won't flee. However, that is not the same thing as admitting the possibility that our faith could be fleeting.

 

[greatdivide46]

So who is getting the glory for the work of salvation?

Holy Sovereign Creator God, Who demonstrated His love, grace and mercy thru His finished work on the cross?
Or
Totally depraved man, incapable of truly repenting from sin and believing in Christ without God first bringing him to Himself ?

God gets the glory -- all the way!!!

 

[Lindas Place]

God gets the glory -- all the way!!!

Not if I am keeping myself saved, as you propose... I can boast that I am keeping myself saved... if God can't keep me save without my power to want to keep saved... God can't take all the glory... and all the scriptures boasting of God's power would be in question, for sure.

 

[Lindas Place]

I agree that our faith won't flee. However, that is not the same thing as admitting the possibility that our faith could be fleeting.

Could be if God said it could be... but God said faith is being sure and certain... so if it is fleeting, it wasn't sure and certain... so it wasn't faith to begin with.

 

[Lindas Place]

Can a man cross over from death to life to death?


John 5:24
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

 

[WinBySurrender]

I agree that our faith won't flee. However, that is not the same thing as admitting the possibility that our faith could be fleeting.

Which means it was not planted in "good soil" in the first place, right? You've just described the point of the parable of the seeds.

 

[greatdivide46]

Not if I am keeping myself saved, as you propose... I can boast that I am keeping myself saved... if God can't keep me save without my power to want to keep saved... God can't take all the glory... and all the scriptures boasting of God's power would be in question, for sure.

Somewhere I have miscommunicated if you think I am proposing that I am keeping myself saved. I don't believe that I have ever said or even implied that. At least not on purpose. I don't believe that man can keep himself saved.

I just can't understand how God's power is dependent on an individual staying saved.

 

[greatdivide46]

Can a man cross over from death to life to death?

Yes. Will he? Probably not.

 

[Lindas Place]

Yes. Will he? Probably not.

Here's what God's Word say's and I don't see how or know why you would add... yes he will cross over from life to death or probably not.


24 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

 

[Lindas Place]

Somewhere I have miscommunicated if you think I am proposing that I am keeping myself saved. I don't believe that I have ever said or even implied that. At least not on purpose. I don't believe that man can keep himself saved.

I just can't understand how God's power is dependent on an individual staying saved.

If you don't believe man can keep himself saved and you don't believe God will keep man saved... that's a big problem for man... and Christ died for nothing.

 

[timur123456789]

Salavation is continous process . It is non a one time event.