once saved always saved

[greatdivide46]

Greatdivide… I disagree, that would not be a great powerful god… that would be a weak, dead beat dad… and he has let the kids take control to their on demise... the kids are on the throne.

I disagree. It take a powerful lot of strength and love to let a child have their own way even when the parent knows that its the wrong way. Especially in God's case where He has the ability to force His children to stay with Him even if they don't want to. The God I worship would never be the kind of Father who would force His children to do anything against their will. Not that He couldn't do that -- He could -- He just wouldn't.

You already agreed that “God is on the throne” now you are contradicting that…

I'm sorry but I don't see God allowing His children to have their own way takes Him off His throne. God being on the throne doesn't mean that He is forcing His children to do only what He knows is good for them. God's being on the throne means allowing His children to make mistakes even when He knows they are mistakes.

You cannot claim you could push God away, walk away or jump out of His hand, then claim that was not something you did in your power over God's...

I'm not saying that those things are done in one's own power over God's. What I'm saying is that God voluntarily stays His power to allow those things to happen. But again I must emphasize that I personally can't imagine that they ever would but I can't deny the possibility.

If an argument presented creates a contradiction in the biblical text, that argument must change… and your argument creates a contradiction. Either God is on the throne or not.

God is definitely on the throne and His children leaving Him or staying with Him is not the defining evidence of whether or not He's on the throne.

 

[greatdivide46]

But the word of God does not warn about that possibility in a general way. The warnings are usually given to a specific group or for a specific purpose.

It doesn't really matter all that much whether they are general or specific. The fact is, even in the specific instances, the possibility still exists. That's all I'm saying. If a certain specific group can lose their salvation for a specific purpose couldn't that be applied to all groups? Or should we think that some specific groups are exempt from God's warnings? And if that's true, how do we decide which groups are exempt?

 

[greatdivide46]

I have a question for you regarding your statements above. Does God have multiple realities? Does He awaits our choice to complete His will?

Ok, that's two questions. lol

Does God have multiple realities? I really don't know, but I can live with that as a possibility.

Does He await our choice to complete His will? I've never considered this question before but I'm inclined to say yes. I'd have a hard time imagining that God would force His will on people without their consent. Although, I'm certain that He could do that and I wouldn't argue with Him if He did.

 

[greatdivide46]

What will you do with those verses that say the opposite? Do you just ignore them, or do you try to reconcile the verses?

I can't think of any verses that say the opposite. But if there are any I can assure you that I wouldn't ignore them. In fact, its because I don't ignore certain scripture passages that I'm constrained to believe the way I do.

 

[Hentenza]

It doesn't really matter all that much whether they are general or specific. The fact is, even in the specific instances, the possibility still exists. That's all I'm saying. If a certain specific group can lose their salvation for a specific purpose couldn't that be applied to all groups? Or should we think that some specific groups are exempt from God's warnings? And if that's true, how do we decide which groups are exempt?

I apologize for leaving my comment vague. The general warnings that we see in scripture denote the ideal Christian living but not the fate of their salvation. On several occasions Paul, John, and James exhort the Christian to behave a certain way and on other occasions they are directing their comments to those that are yet to be saved. The comments are directed at those in the early church which, just as in the churches now, contain both wheats and tares. The tares continue their "unhealthy" living, not yet having experienced the rebirth.

 

[Hentenza]

Does God have multiple realities? I really don't know, but I can live with that as a possibility.

Well consider the repercussions of your statement here. If God has multiple realities then some realities will be opposite to His will. If God has realities that are opposite to His will then God changes. If God changes then all of the promises made in the scripture can change including salvation by faith in the Son.

Does He await our choice to complete His will? I've never considered this question before but I'm inclined to say yes. I'd have a hard time imagining that God would force His will on people without their consent. Although, I'm certain that He could do that and I wouldn't argue with Him if He did.

lol No sense in arguing with the creator of all things.

God's attributes includes perfection. God is perfect which means that He has all that is to be had and he lacks nothing because if He lacked something then He would not be perfect. The problem with not having the knowledge of our will is that God then would lack knowledge which means that God then would not be perfect. This works out the solution of why God is the only perfect being and sole creator since if there were more than one perfect being then they would have to be identical otherwise what makes them different would lack in the other. Identical beings would then, by necessity, would have to be one (just as the Trinity is).

A second consideration regards God's role as the uncaused cause of all that exists. God can not be contingent on anything since contingency implies cause. If something causes God to change then God is not uncaused but contingent on the cause that would make Him change, consequently, nothing can cause God to change, otherwise, He would not be uncaused. The matter of contingency is front and center regarding an eternal, uncaused being.

In short, if God has multiple realities then He can not be perfect since He would lack the knowledge of which reality is true. Likewise, if God awaits our choice then He also lacks the knowledge of our will and would cause Him to change from His will to the result of our will causing Him to be contingent on our will. That is problematic at best.

 

[GodsServant05]

Yes, I do believe it's Biblical.

 

[Lindas Place]

I disagree. It take a powerful lot of strength and love to let a child have their own way even when the parent knows that its the wrong way. Especially in God's case where He has the ability to force His children to stay with Him even if they don't want to. The God I worship would never be the kind of Father who would force His children to do anything against their will. Not that He couldn't do that -- He could -- He just wouldn't.

No… that is a dead beat dad… who not only does not love his children, he hates them.

This is what a loving Father does when their children, as you say, walk away… and no Father ask His children if it’s ok to discipline them…. So He does force this discipline on us… you should know this as a child of God…

because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." Hebrews 12:6


Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Hebrews 12:7-8

 

[Lindas Place]

I'm sorry but I don't see God allowing His children to have their own way takes Him off His throne. God being on the throne doesn't mean that He is forcing His children to do only what He knows is good for them. God's being on the throne means allowing His children to make mistakes even when He knows they are mistakes.

I agree that God allows us to have our own way… and He disciplines us when that way is wrong… but that is much different than what you are suggesting… you are saying He is no longer our Father… He un-adopts us, unseals us, disowns us, we are un-born again, given our old heart back and God creates the old sinful man all over again… we pass from death to life, then back to death again… You see it’s a lot more complicated than you realize… God did an amazing work in us… we have been born again… it may seem trivial to you… but it’s not something a human could do, it’s a miracle… and unless you were more powerful than God, you can’t do that.. Or undo that… Only God can do it and His word say’s He won’t…

 

[greatdivide46]

I apologize for leaving my comment vague. The general warnings that we see in scripture denote the ideal Christian living but not the fate of their salvation. On several occasions Paul, John, and James exhort the Christian to behave a certain way and on other occasions they are directing their comments to those that are yet to be saved. The comments are directed at those in the early church which, just as in the churches now, contain both wheats and tares. The tares continue their "unhealthy" living, not yet having experienced the rebirth.

So the warnings to keep the faith and to stay in race until the finish are addressed to people who have no faith or who are not even in the race?

 

[Lindas Place]

I'm not saying that those things are done in one's own power over God's. What I'm saying is that God voluntarily stays His power to allow those things to happen. But again I must emphasize that I personally can't imagine that they ever would but I can't deny the possibility.


God is definitely on the throne and His children leaving Him or staying with Him is not the defining evidence of whether or not He's on the throne.

God voluntarily stays His power this I agree with... Here's His power in action...

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one (even greatdivide46) can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one (even greatdivide46) can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:28-30

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, (even greatdivide46) will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39"

 

[greatdivide46]

I agree that God allows us to have our own way… and He disciplines us when that way is wrong… but that is much different than what you are suggesting… you are saying He is no longer our Father… He un-adopts us, unseals us, disowns us, we are un-born again, given our old heart back and God creates the old sinful man all over again… we pass from death to life, then back to death again… You see it’s a lot more complicated than you realize… God did an amazing work in us… we have been born again… it may seem trivial to you… but it’s not something a human could do, it’s a miracle… and unless you were more powerful than God, you can’t do that.. Or undo that… Only God can do it and His word say’s He won’t…

I agree the God disciplines those whom He loves -- His children. I am not saying that He is no longer our Father, that He un-adopts us, unseals us, or disowns us. He does not give us our old heart back nor does he create the old sinful man all over again, since those things are never completely dead until we are actually in heaven. I agree completely that God did an amazing work in us. It does not seem trivial to me at all. Certainly I couldn't have done what only God can do. And all of God's discipline and His work is done in an effort to keep His children faithful to Him of their own volition. But on rare occasions someone may ignore all that discipline or misinterpret it as cruel and decide to forsake God and go their own way again. When that happens, I can't believe that God would force them to stay with Him when they'd rather be somewhere else.

 

[Lindas Place]

I agree the God disciplines those whom He loves -- His children. I am not saying that He is no longer our Father, that He un-adopts us, unseals us, or disowns us. He does not give us our old heart back nor does he create the old sinful man all over again, since those things are never completely dead until we are actually in heaven. I agree completely that God did an amazing work in us. It does not seem trivial to me at all. Certainly I couldn't have done what only God can do. And all of God's discipline and His work is done in an effort to keep His children faithful to Him of their own volition. But on rare occasions someone may ignore all that discipline or misinterpret it as cruel and decide to forsake God and go their own way again. When that happens, I can't believe that God would force them to stay with Him when they'd rather be somewhere else.

I can't imagine that He wouldn't... His word say's He WILL keep us... I believe His Word... and I am proof that He will never leave us nor forsake us... you need to look back at the premises you agree to... because you are contradicting several of them... like God is on the throne... God will not forsake...

 

[Lindas Place]

Greatdivide46... So we agree on these things…

Salvation is by grace, through faith, not by works.
Believers receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
God is on the throne.
God will not forsake.
The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Onlybygrace added these… which I agree, do you agree?

There will be evidence of salvation.
The Holy Spirit produces the Fruit of the Spirit
Faith is by definition is not fleeting
There are those who say they know Him that do not.

These you disagree with.

Eternal Life is not by definition a future time.
It is not temporary life in Christ, but eternal life in Christ.

Let's continue on... do you agree with what Onlybygrace added?

 

[Hentenza]

So the warnings to keep the faith and to stay in race until the finish are addressed to people who have no faith or who are not even in the race?

To stay in the race did not mean to loose salvation but to loose the prize if one faltered. Paul used the symbolism of the Greek Isthmus games that were prevalent in Corinth during his time and would have been a well known analogy to the Corinthians. During the games only the victor won the prize which was a garland of green leaves. The name of those disqualified would be announced along with the name of the victor. Paul uses the game analogy to continue his theme of rewards that he started in chapter 3 of the same book. Paul did not want to loose his rewards, the seven crowns spoken of in scripture. Paul was not in jeopardy of loosing his salvation any more than the loosers or the disqualified players had a chance of loosing their citizenship.

 

[greatdivide46]

I can't imagine that He wouldn't... His word say's He WILL keep us... I believe His Word... and I am proof that He will never leave us nor forsake us... you need to look back at the premises you agree to... because you are contradicting several of them... like God is on the throne... God will not forsake...

I, too, am proof that He will never leave us nor forsake us. I still agree with all the premises I agreed with earlier. God is still on the throne and He will nor forsake us. I have never disagreed with those. I do however believe that we can forsake Him and He will not stop us. That has nothing to do with taking Him from the throne.

 

[greatdivide46]

Greatdivide46... So we agree on these things…

Salvation is by grace, through faith, not by works.
Believers receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
God is on the throne.
God will not forsake.
The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Onlybygrace added these… which I agree, do you agree?

There will be evidence of salvation.
The Holy Spirit produces the Fruit of the Spirit
Faith is by definition is not fleeting
There are those who say they know Him that do not.

These you disagree with.

Eternal Life is not by definition a future time.
It is not temporary life in Christ, but eternal life in Christ.

Let's continue on... do you agree with what Onlybygrace added?

I looked back and I couldn't find what Onlybygrace added, so I don't know if I agree or not.

 

[Lindas Place]

I looked back and I couldn't find what Onlybygrace added, so I don't know if I agree or not.

Sorry, I should have said... it's listed right here in my list... half way down..

Greatdivide46... So we agree on these things…

Salvation is by grace, through faith, not by works.
Believers receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
God is on the throne.
God will not forsake.
The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Onlybygrace added these… which I agree, do you agree?

There will be evidence of salvation.
The Holy Spirit produces the Fruit of the Spirit
Faith is by definition is not fleeting
There are those who say they know Him that do not.

These you disagree with.

Eternal Life is not by definition a future time.
It is not temporary life in Christ, but eternal life in Christ.

 

[DeaconDean]

I disagree. Man being able to take himself out of God's hand says nothing at all about the power of the Creator of all things. I does say something about His willingness to let His creatures have their own way, though, even if He doesn't like it! What a great and powerful God who can be that way.

Are the scriptures the word of God?

Can scriptures lie?

Evidently they do.

Scriptures say no man, not even yourself, can take you out of the Father's hand.

But you say you can.

That makes man more powerful than God.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DCJazz]

Are the scriptures the word of God?

Can scriptures lie?

Evidently they do.

Scriptures say no man, not even yourself, can take you out of the Father's hand.

But you say you can.

That makes man more powerful than God.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Awesome how this looks like a poem.