Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[Bible Highlighter]

We waste time arguing about my motives - this is about the truth of the Bible and the arguments people have presented, not about me. Now I don't know whether you have experience in formal debate, but in debates you do not challenge people personally, you just stick to the arguments presented, but I asked you to refrain from talking about me personally but instead you doubled down and justified talking about me personally - please stop, especially if you believe in a strict interpretation of "love your neighbor".



You can't send someone to hell for loosey goosey feelings, but that is what you're suggesting: that the HS alone will decide whether we go to hell irrespective of the NT Bible verses. I keep persisting in this topic because there are grave inconsistencies and gap in the theology you've presented so far.

1. You said that the OT doesn't apply to us any more, but everything in the NT is the new law that we must follow
2. You say that Rev 21:8 means that Christians go to hell for doing these things, and therefore based on #1 we must follow absolutely
3. You privately gave me a list of suggestions for following your way, which by the way I find reasonably acceptable - BUT contradict your strict interpretation of Rev 21:8
4. The standards of Rev 21:8 demand absolute perfection. No white lies, and the Bible is quite clear that not one of us can say we do not lie, and the NT gives absolutely NO exceptions about good and bad lies unlike the OT which clearly gives several examples of reasonable lies.
5. I find no proof in the NT that says that there are exceptions to lies or greed (unlike in the OT), and in fact the Sermon on the Mount as interpreted by you gives the strictest interpretation ever imagined. No longer is it about being greedy (for example), but the mere thought of being greedy will send you to hell according to the very arguments you proposed (about Matt 5-7). You can't want an iphone 8 - that is sin, because you already have a phone: that IS what Rev 21:8 says (greed) if we interpret it like you have argued - if you disagree with this, then prove it by showing a NT verse (no OT verses, because as you say, they don't apply to us, and as you point out the Matt 5-7 presents an even tougher standard) that elaborates "greed" or "lies".

To tell you the truth, the suggestions you gave in your private post does not present an extreme view of CS, I found it more in the middle - as you said yourself, it is more relational based. That's fine, but you cannot say that and then turn around and argue a strict "go to hell" interpretation that you've argued about Rev 21:8 among others. There is a contradiction.

Basically there are 3 positions about this controversial theology:
Position 1: OSAS
Position 2: You are saved as long as you remain in relationship with him (don't backslide) and repent of your sins (this is your position according to my understanding of your private post)
Position 3: Every little thing sends you to hell even after salvation (the problem is that you argued this #3 position in this thread, even though your suggestions for practically living a CS life in your private post suggests position #2).

My perspective is this: I think position #2 is "reasonable", and in fact I wrote earlier in this thread that that is actually my personal position, which is why I find your private post reasonable. However, you argue in this thread position #3, which I am trying to clarify.

If you really believed #2, then Rev 21:8 cannot mean as you've argued in this thread. If you really believed in position #3, then your suggestions in your private post don't go far enough because Rev 21:8 if we are honest with ourselves covers everything to such an extreme degree of perfection (because there are no exceptions) that you will not remember to repent of everything and in fact you won't even realize that you've sinned a lot of the time. Why? Because you can only repent of sins based on your understanding of the Bible, how can you repent of something that is based on something you didn't realize?

Depending on your "feelings" about your HS convictions is murky at best - there are plenty of Christians who go by their feelings alone - feelings are unreliable especially if you feel that sins will send you to hell, how can we preach to judge whether we've sinned based on our feelings? That's irresponsible. We can only teach/preach based on the written word. Therefore the implication of accepting a perfect no-exception interpretation of Rev 21:8 means that we WILL sin in ways that we didn't realize. You judge me for trying to find loopholes to sin, but I'm not doing that - I am taking your arguments to their natural conclusion: every one of us will sin without realizing it because there are no exceptions. We don't live in a black and white world, there are shades of grey - even in the OT - but according to you, we must be absolutely perfect (or realize where we've gone wrong in every little thing) or go to hell. Your relational lifestyle, I argue, is woefully insufficient from stopping you from going to hell according to what you've preached in this thread.

I'm not judging you, I'm trying to address the gap between your arguments in this thread and your lifestyle that you've suggested in the private post. Your lifestyle suggestions you've privately posted is not enough to meet the standard that you've preached in this thread which demands absolute perfection and where there really isn't room for a "relationship" type obedience.

If you've sinned and didn't realize it, according to you, you will be fine if you're in relationship with God (because the HS didn't convict you). I completely disagree that you're fine if your interpretation of Rev 21:8 is as you say. Sin is sin, therefore you go to hell if you don't repent, even if you don't realize it (#3 position). Are you really willing to bet your entire salvation based on whether you feel that you've sinned (that is: depending on the HS to convict you)? I'm not comfortable depending on feelings. I want to know whether I've sinned or not, especially if every sin in Rev 21:8 sends you to hell. And that's the problem - you live position #2, but you preached in this thread position #3.

Unlike most others in this thread who are trying to convince you to adopt another position, I am not doing that. I am quite happy to adopt your position #2 that you've suggested in your private post. But, your preaching in this thread strongly adopts position #3, and if position #3 is the truth then people who follow position #1 AND #2 will go to hell. There is a contradiction in your lifestyle vs your arguments in this thread.

Revelation 21:8 is not tough to keep for a believer who desires to sell themselves out to Jesus Christ and desires to obey all of God's Word. Also, you are saying certain sins are little when they are not little. A white lie is still a lie. Are you telling the truth when you tell a white lie? No. Also, the OT involved war (Which involved deception as a part of the art of war). Seeing we are not under the OT and we are not commanded to go to war anymore with other evil nations, the choice is clear that God does not want us to lie for any reason under the NT. If God tells us to stop, we stop. If God tells us to go, we go. Not all commands are eternal thru out time with the same consequences. It was a serious sin if you did not keep the Saturday Sabbath under the OT. But in the NT, we are not bound to keep the Saturday Sabbath. Also, 1 John 5:16-18 says there are sins unto death and sins not unto death. This means not all sins lead to the Second Death or the Lake of Fire.

Oh, and yes. The devil is in the details. Does it really sound all that immoral to eat of a particular tree? No. But it was immoral. God said not to eat of a particular tree for Adam and Eve. The breaking of this command was enough to separate God from man. You may not even understand why it is wrong to tell a white lie. But it is wrong because it is still a lie (technically speaking). You may think it is small and does not matter, but to God it does matter. Just as much as it mattered that God cared that Adam obeyed Him in regards to His one command.

It is also written,

"But if your eye is evil, your whole body will be full of darkness. If the light in you is darkness, how dark it will be!" (Matthew 6:23 GWT).

Here we see in this verse above of how if your eye is evil, your whole body is in darkness. The idea here is that if you do a little evil, it darkens your whole soul. For a little leaven leavens the whole lump (Galatians 5:9).

Then we see a problem with a person's works. They are associated with the person and this person is labeled as being lukewarm whereby Jesus will spew them out of His mouth.

15 "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:15-16).

Pretty serious stuff here above. In fact, a similar thing is said in Titus 1:16.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

Then there is Ananais.

1 "But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him." (Acts 5:1-6).

Now, what is sick is that some OSAS Proponents will tell you that Ananais was saved. Like God rewards people with Heaven the moment they lie to the Holy Ghost. Yeah Right! In fact, we know that fear came upon the church and all who heard about this (according to Scripture). The emotion of fear is what came upon them and not comfort or peace of them knowing that their friend was safely in the arms of Jesus for lying to the Spirit. Such utter ridiculousness! The OSAS Proponent wants me to actually believe such garbage? Come on now! Where is God's goodness or standard of morality being upheld? The answer to that question is that it is not. The OSAS Proponent wants me to turn off my moral compass and or to try change the plain written meaning of what is written in Acts 5.

Now, you may think you found a chink in the amor of Conditional Salvation, but such a thing is simply not true. God's truth within His Word cannot be undone. The verses and passages I have provided prove it to be true time and time again. Your ability to not understand it does not undo it. Remember, did the Pharisees understand what Jesus was saying? No. They didn't get what He was saying. Why? Because they believed in a form of Once Saved Always Saved, too. They believed they were sons of Abraham and based on that belief, they thought they were of God. They were sons! Sounds like the same line I hear from OSAS Proponents. Anyways, read John chapter 8 very carefully and research as to the reason WHY the Pharisees couldn't understand Jesus (and it may actually shock you). In fact, I give you a clue. Read John 8:47, John 8:42-44, John 8:37-38.

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13).


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Controversial partly because those three positions don't address the three salvations of a triune (spirit, soul, body) man.

A position which is only tenable when applied to the spirit, which is the only thing 'saved' when one initially accepts and is born again in the spirit.


This position should say 'fellowship' and not 'relationship'. This position is muddied because it does not differentiate the difference between the salvation of the soul which is based upon obedience in 'fellowship', and the salvation of the spirit which is only based upon a 'born again' 'relationship'. You can no more lose who you are related to with your born again spirit, than you can lose a Father, Mother, Brother whom you are related to by blood. But fellowship is subsequent to relationship. And soul salvation is subsequent to spirit salvation.


Everyone will undergo the final purgative fires of judgment even if they are Christian according to 1Cor 3. Even though their foundation is solid their soulish works may be good and bad. That which is bad must be purged, and can not be allowed in heaven.

1CO 3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw --
13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss (of reward vs14), though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Spirit salvation determines going to heaven and soul salvation determines your rewards in heaven.

Purgatory only exists in the mind of man

But if Christ is in you your body is dead because of sin, but your Spirit is alive because of righteousness
Rom8:9

Your earthly body does not enter heaven, so it doesn't need to be purged to get there

 

[supescritter]

Revelation 21:8 is not tough to keep for a believer who desires to sell themselves out to Jesus Christ and desires to obey all of God's Word. Also, you are saying certain sins are little when they are not little. A white lie is still a lie. Are you telling the truth when you tell a white lie? No. Also, the OT involved war (Which involved deception as a part of the art of war). Seeing we are not under the OT and we are not commanded to go to war anymore with other evil nations, the choice is clear that God does not want us to lie for any reason under the NT. If God tells us to stop, we stop. If God tells us to go, we go. Not all commands are eternal thru out time with the same consequences. It was a serious sin if you did not keep the Saturday Sabbath under the OT. But in the NT, we are not bound to keep the Saturday Sabbath. Also, 1 John 5:16-18 says there are sins unto death and sins not unto death. This means not all sins lead to the Second Death or the Lake of Fire.

Oh, and yes. The devil is in the details. Does it really sound all that immoral to eat of a particular tree? No. But it was immoral. God said not to eat of a particular tree for Adam and Eve. The breaking of this command was enough to separate God from man. You may not even understand why it is wrong to tell a white lie. But it is wrong because it is still a lie (technically speaking). You may think it is small and does not matter, but to God it does matter. Just as much as it mattered that God cared that Adam obeyed Him in regards to His one command.

It is also written,

"But if your eye is evil, your whole body will be full of darkness. If the light in you is darkness, how dark it will be!" (Matthew 6:23 GWT).

Here we see in this verse above of how if your eye is evil, your whole body is in darkness. The idea here is that if you do a little evil, it darkens your whole soul. For a little leaven leavens the whole lump (Galatians 5:9).

Then we see a problem with a person's works. They are associated with the person and this person is labeled as being lukewarm whereby Jesus will spew them out of His mouth.

15 "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:15-16).

Pretty serious stuff here above. In fact, a similar thing is said in Titus 1:16.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

Then there is Ananais.

1 "But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him." (Acts 5:1-6).

Now, what is sick is that some OSAS Proponents will tell you that Ananais was saved. Like God rewards people with Heaven the moment they lie to the Holy Ghost. Yeah Right! In fact, we know that fear came upon the church and all who heard about this (according to Scripture). The emotion of fear is what came upon them and not comfort or peace of them knowing that their friend was safely in the arms of Jesus for lying to the Spirit. Such utter ridiculousness! The OSAS Proponent wants me to actually believe such garbage? Come on now! Where is God's goodness or standard of morality being upheld? The answer to that question is that it is not. The OSAS Proponent wants me to turn off my moral compass and or to try change the plain written meaning of what is written in Acts 5.

Now, you may think you found a chink in the amor of Conditional Salvation, but such a thing is simply not true. God's truth within His Word cannot be undone. The verses and passages I have provided prove it to be true time and time again. Your ability to not understand it does not undo it. Remember, did the Pharisees understand what Jesus was saying? No. They didn't get what He was saying. Why? Because they believed in a form of Once Saved Always Saved, too. They believed they were sons of Abraham and based on that belief, they thought they were of God. They were sons! Sounds like the same line I hear from OSAS Proponents. Anyways, read John chapter 8 very carefully and research as to the reason WHY the Pharisees couldn't understand Jesus (and it may actually shock you). In fact, I give you a clue. Read John 8:47, John 8:42-44, John 8:37-38.

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

...

I am prepared to accept the possibility of a strict interpretation of lies, even though I don't see any precedence outside of Rev 21:8 that says white lies send you to hell. Up until now, my interpretation of the Matt 5-7 is basically it's a reinforcement of "love your neighbor" - it's not about what you do that matters, it's your motive. Even if you don't commit adultery, if you want to (motive) - that is the actual crime. Applied to lying, lying becomes wrong when it is done out of selfish motive or to harm someone - that fits in quite nicely to the 10 commandments where "do not give false testimony" is harming someone. But that interpretation also allows for white lies - because they don't harm anyone.

If you say to someone "everything is going to be okay" to comfort them: Is that not a lie that according to your interpretation of Rev 21:8 will send you to hell? How does anyone know "everything is going to be okay"? That's what I mean by "every LITTLE thing". There are a bazillion examples I can think of.

Anyway, I assume you agree that you personally live a position #2, but I still think that your preaching of #3 position condemns your position #2 lifestyle. I think most Christians I know believe in a position #2 (including myself), but no-one I know believes in a position #3, and that's what I find so vexing about your posts in this thread. I was happy when you privately posted me, because your proposed lifestyle promoted the position #2, which I found reasonable; and yet your posts in this thread are clearly a position #3.

(ps. nowhere in the Bible says that Ananias and Sapphira were actually saved. They saw a movement in the Church that they wanted to be a part of, but it doesn't say anywhere that they were actually saved in the first place)

 

[stuart lawrence]

The christian is called to surrender their life to Christ. They have chosen their master. It would then be impossible for such a person to view the removal of a law of righteousness as a licence to sin. You cannot surrender your life to someone and at the same time seek to offend them, intentionally seek to oppose how they want you to live, that is not possible.
Yet Jason has repeatedly stressed the removal of a law of righteousness is indeed a licence to sin.
Which means Jason is either blind to the reality, or, he has not surrendered his life to Christ.

For those who just want to reel off the letter and discuss head theology this will not be important. For those who want to consider spiritual reality it would be

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Careful everyone. The OSAS Proponent will say they are not under any Law of righteousness when Paul was clearly referencing the Law of Moses (because he was talking about circumcision, tablets of stone, etc.). Also, I need to warn you as well. When the OSAS Proponent says that not being under no Law whatsoever will actually make them want to obey the Law (with them saying that their belief here is not a license to sin), they are actually not speaking from any sense of what we call reality. For example: If there was no more speed limit on the high ways anymore, what do you think is going to happen? More people are going to drive at higher unsafe speeds and the number of accidents and deaths on the highway will increase. Now, they may love to point out to you that if you love someone, you are going to automatically not do things to hurt them. This is taken from Romans 13:8-10. While it is true, that loving your neighbor is going to help to prevent you from stealing from them or from murdering them, etc. However, if you did not know about the command that says, do not murder, you may change the definition of what you think love is. For example: You may decide to steal for somebody that you love if you were not aware (or if you minimized) God's command that says, "You shall not steal." You may think fornication (sex outside of marriage) is love (if you have never read God's Command in telling you not to fornicate). In other words, the detailed commands in God's Word helps us to define HOW to love our neighbor. It's why Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). The example Paul said Romans 13:8-9 to those who KNOW the Law already. For he was writing to those within the church in Rome who knew the Law. The problem is that they were being seduced by Jewish men (Who were not truly Christian) who desired them to be circumcised so as to be saved. That is why Paul wrote Romans 13:8-10. They knew the Law already and they were struggling in going back to the Old Law by trying to be circumcised so as to be justified or saved before God. But we are under a New Covenant with New Laws or Commands. Do you not believe me? Just sit down and get out a paper notebook and write down anything that sounds like a Command from God within the New Testament. For why would God give us commands in the New Testament if we are not under them? It doesn't make any sense.

Anyways, we know the OSAS Proponent is not being truthful when they say that their belief is not a license to sin because they also say that 1 John 1:8 and Galatians 2:17 is saying that the believer is always in sin (i.e. which is a license to sin). In other words, they DO believe they can sin and still be saved. For they will tell you all future sin is paid for. So do not be fooled, my friends. Listen to their message very carefully.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Carefully everyone. The OSAS Proponent will say they are not under any Law of righteousness when Paul was clearly referencing the Law of Moses (because he was talking about circumcision, tablets of stone, etc.). Also, I need to warn you as well. When the OSAS Proponent says that not being under no Law whatsoever will actually make them want to obey the Law (with them saying that their belief here is not a license to sin), they are actually not speaking from any sense of what we call reality. For example: If there was no more speed limit on the high ways anymore, what do you think is going to happen? More people are going to drive at higher unsafe speeds and the number of accidents and deaths on the highway will increase. Now, they may love to point out to you that if you love someone, you are going to automatically not do things to hurt them. This is taken from Romans 13:8-10. While it is true, that loving your neighbor is going to help to prevent you from stealing from them or from murdering them, etc. However, if you did not know about the command that says, do not murder, you may change the definition of what you think love is. For example: You may decide to steal for somebody that you love if you were not aware (or if you minimized) God's command that says, "You shall not steal." You may think fornication (sex outside of marriage) is love (if you have never read God's Command in telling you not to fornicate). In other words, the detailed commands in God's Word helps us to define HOW to love our neighbor. It's why Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). The example Paul said Romans 13:8-9 to those who KNOW the Law already. For he was writing to those within the church in Rome who knew the Law. The problem is that they were being seduced by Jewish men (Who were not truly Christian) who desired them to be circumcised so as to be saved. That is why Paul wrote Romans 13:8-10. They knew the Law already and they were struggling in going back to the Old Law by trying to be circumcised so as to be justified or saved before God. But we are under a New Covenant with New Laws or Commands. Do you not believe me? Just sit down and get out a paper notebook and write down anything that sounds like a Command from God within the New Testament. For why would God give us commands in the New Testament if we are not under them? It doesn't make any sense.

Anyways, we know the OSAS Proponent is not being truthful when they say that their belief is not a license to sin because they also say that 1 John 1:8 and Galatians 2:17 is saying that the believer is always in sin (i.e. which is a license to sin). In other words, they DO believe they can sin and still be saved. For they will tell you all future sin is paid for. So do not be fooled, my friends. Listen to their message very carefully.


...

You are NOT a spirit filled christian are you. And you cannot comprehend the outworking of the NC.

BTW

If it was on your heart to obey the speed limit you would not desire to break it!!

And you keep stating you need to read the word to understand the law.

The truly born again christian has the law written on their mind and placed on their heart.

And of course, you have to ignore the fact that if you have surrendered your life to Christ, the removal of a law of righteousness could not possibly be viewed as a licence to sin.

Sadly, some may be beguiled by what you write, but no spirit filled christian will be

 

[stuart lawrence]

A law of righteousness is for those who do not love God, not those who do.
Those who don't love God would obviously view the removal of a law of righteousness as an excuse to sin as much as they want.
Those who do in their hearts love God could never believe that. For no one seeks to grieve the one they love.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Carefully everyone. The OSAS Proponent will say they are not under any Law of righteousness when Paul was clearly referencing the Law of Moses (because he was talking about circumcision, tablets of stone, etc.). Also, I need to warn you as well. When the OSAS Proponent says that not being under no Law whatsoever will actually make them want to obey the Law (with them saying that their belief here is not a license to sin), they are actually not speaking from any sense of what we call reality. For example: If there was no more speed limit on the high ways anymore, what do you think is going to happen? More people are going to drive at higher unsafe speeds and the number of accidents and deaths on the highway will increase. Now, they may love to point out to you that if you love someone, you are going to automatically not do things to hurt them. This is taken from Romans 13:8-10. While it is true, that loving your neighbor is going to help to prevent you from stealing from them or from murdering them, etc. However, if you did not know about the command that says, do not murder, you may change the definition of what you think love is. For example: You may decide to steal for somebody that you love if you were not aware (or if you minimized) God's command that says, "You shall not steal." You may think fornication (sex outside of marriage) is love (if you have never read God's Command in telling you not to fornicate). In other words, the detailed commands in God's Word helps us to define HOW to love our neighbor. It's why Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). The example Paul said Romans 13:8-9 to those who KNOW the Law already. For he was writing to those within the church in Rome who knew the Law. The problem is that they were being seduced by Jewish men (Who were not truly Christian) who desired them to be circumcised so as to be saved. That is why Paul wrote Romans 13:8-10. They knew the Law already and they were struggling in going back to the Old Law by trying to be circumcised so as to be justified or saved before God. But we are under a New Covenant with New Laws or Commands. Do you not believe me? Just sit down and get out a paper notebook and write down anything that sounds like a Command from God within the New Testament. For why would God give us commands in the New Testament if we are not under them? It doesn't make any sense.

Anyways, we know the OSAS Proponent is not being truthful when they say that their belief is not a license to sin because they also say that 1 John 1:8 and Galatians 2:17 is saying that the believer is always in sin (i.e. which is a license to sin). In other words, they DO believe they can sin and still be saved. For they will tell you all future sin is paid for. So do not be fooled, my friends. Listen to their message very carefully.


...

So it is not speaking I any sense of reality to say if you are not under any law of righteousness you will sin less.

Very true. For it is spiritual truth, not truth the natural mind of man can comprehend.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you for speaking evil of me falsely. I will rejoice in God my Savior (As Jesus told me to do).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am prepared to accept the possibility of a strict interpretation of lies, even though I don't see any precedence outside of Rev 21:8 that says white lies send you to hell.

A man was killed just for collecting sticks on the Saturday Sabbath (under the Old Covenant) (Numbers 15:32-36). Disobedience to any of God's laws is enough for God to condemn you (Whether you see the obedience to His Law as making sense to you or not is irrelevant). When you are not telling the truth in any way, you are lying. For is telling a white lie involve deception? Yes, or no? Does telling a white lie mean you are telling the truth? Yes, or no? Do you think a white lie can hurt somebody (Thereby breaking the Commandment to love your neighbor)? Yes, or no? Why would you want to take the chance on blurring the line on God's command that says, "You shall not bear false witness"? Why do you think a white lie is not a lie? As I said before, does slowly killing somebody by adding a little poison to their coffee mean you are not killing them? No. Did not Jesus say that even looking upon a woman in lust was like committing adultery, too? In other words, the Pharisees did not treat God’s laws serious enough. What you are saying sounds similar to the problem they had.

Even Gotquestions (Which is a website that erroneously believes in Once Saved Always Saved) is against the idea of telling white lies.

What does the Bible say about white lies?

Up until now, my interpretation of the Matt 5-7 is basically it's a reinforcement of "love your neighbor" - it's not about what you do that matters, it's your motive. Even if you don't commit adultery, if you want to (motive) - that is the actual crime. Applied to lying, lying becomes wrong when it is done out of selfish motive or to harm someone - that fits in quite nicely to the 10 commandments where "do not give false testimony" is harming someone. But that interpretation also allows for white lies - because they don't harm anyone.

No. Ask any criminal investigator who investigates a murder. Their motive is what establishes the crime (i.e. the wrong that they do). The what you do (like say murder) is what is wrong and not just the motive alone. Hate can lead to murder like with Cain. Hate towards his brother was his motive for murdering him. But what if Cain hated his brother but decided not to murder him. Would that not have been better? Could not there have been a day where Cain could have learned to love his brother whereby their relationship could be restored? But if his brother is dead, he cannot restore that relationship anymore while they are alive. So I would say that what a person does is even worse than what evil they carry within their heart (And is worthy of judgment by God). In fact, let’s take a look at Matthew 5, Matthew 6, Matthew 7 and see if it lines up with your belief that says, “It does not matter what you do.”

It is written,

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).​

Not sure how many times the Word of God has to say it before you actually get it. Over and over and over again the warnings are there. But you have to ignore them in order to make your belief work.

If you say to someone "everything is going to be okay" to comfort them: Is that not a lie that according to your interpretation of Rev 21:8 will send you to hell? How does anyone know "everything is going to be okay"? That's what I mean by "every LITTLE thing". There are a bazillion examples I can think of.

You mean like saying to somebody that their gift they gave you is nice when you do not think it is nice in front of others? What biblical example can you give to support this? You cannot. Remember, Jesus says, “And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.” (Matthew 10:36). Standing up for what is true is never easy. To lie out of not hurting somebody’s feelings is not right. Can you imagine the problems with this? For example: If somebody told you that you were not fat when in reality you are fat, and you had health problems because of your weight, the person lying to you was not really helping you but they were merely afraid to tell you the truth. Nobody wants to be discomforted. Let’s have peace with everyone. But Jesus says I come not send peace, but a sword. Standing up for Jesus and His good ways will be offensive to your worldly family and friends. For the Scriptures say that all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. How are you suffering persecution if you are getting along with everyone just fine by trying to please them and not offend them? Yet, Jesus and His good ways are offensive to them.

(ps. nowhere in the Bible says that Ananias and Sapphira were actually saved. They saw a movement in the Church that they wanted to be a part of, but it doesn't say anywhere that they were actually saved in the first place)

How could they lie to the Holy Ghost if the Holy Ghost was not in their life?
Also, if they were unsaved, why didn’t Peter try to preach the gospel to them?
In another example: When Simon sinned, Peter told him to repent by praying to the Lord in the hopes that God would forgive him for his wickedness or sin of trying to pay for the Holy Ghost.

"Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart." (Acts 8:22).

Yet, this did not happen for Ananais and Sapphira. What they did was really sinful and wrong and God condemned them directly for their sin whereby they died and fear fell upon the church and all who heard it. For why would the church fear if an unbeliever died? If they are an unbeliever, that means they rejected Christ like the majority of the world. They would only be in fear because they know that such a thing can happen to them if they are not careful. For Jesus, says,

“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him [i.e. me, or Christ] who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna [i.e. the Lake of Fire].” (Matthew 10:28 ABPE).​

Note: Brackets in blue are my commentaries to the text.


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[stuart lawrence]

Thank you for speaking evil of me falsely. I will rejoice in God my Savior (As Jesus told me to do).


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I simply wrote the truth

 

[stuart lawrence]

And I'm happy to repeat. If you love God you could never believe the removal of a law of righteousness was an excuse to sin as much as you want, that would be impossible for no one seeks to offend the one they truly love.

If you don't love God, then you would consider the removal of a law of righteousness to be an excuse to sin as much as you want

 

[stuart lawrence]

When you think about it. The only people who need to be under a law of righteousness are those who in their hearts do not love God

 

[stuart lawrence]

Simple, but profound truth can easily be missed when only reams of the partial letter are quoted in debate

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yet, the OSAS proponent will also say that they are sinners according to 1 John 1:8 and Galatians 2:17, though. So their claim to holiness or doing good is simply not true. Jesus says you cannot serve two masters.


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[stuart lawrence]

I hope you all notice how the point continually made is continually ignored.

It would be impossible for someone who in their heart truly loved God to view the removal of a law of righteousness as a licence to sin. For no one seeks to offend the one they truly love

 

[stuart lawrence]

However, for anyone who was religious but did not love God, the removal of a law of righteousness would be seen as an excuse to sin as much as they wanted

 

[stuart lawrence]

Now we can see why Jasons scriptures and mine exist in the same bible.

He quotes the warnings that are given, primarily to those who are half hearted about God/ not fully committed to him.

I quote passages that are written for those people who in their hearts love God and are fully committed/ want to be fully committed to him

 

[Hillsage]

Purgatory only exists in the mind of man

Purgatory isn't really even on the agenda IMO. I'm certainly not a RC and am not promoting Purgatory. So I'm not sure why you even mentioned it.

But if Christ is in you your body is dead because of sin, but your Spirit is alive because of righteousness
Rom8:9

Your earthly body does not enter heaven, so it doesn't need to be purged to get there

Rom 8 certainly agrees with me that no one has a saved body yet. I am curious as to whether you believe your resurrected earthly body goes to heaven? And if it does, then what saving action brought that to pass. You also haven't told us the difference between the saving of spirit and soul, and how that all ties in scripturally to the two opposing positions of 'OSAS' and 'Conditional salvation'.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In regards to the OSAS Proponent's thinking that they are surrendering their life to Christ: Well, again, a wrong interpretation on 1 John 1:8 and Galatians 2:17 is the banner flag for the OSAS Proponent in that they will also declare that they are sinners, too. So this whole mantra from OSAS Proponents about how they are surrendering their life to Christ is just simply not true. For they believe they can sin and still be saved and that all future sin is paid for. They also believe that seeking to obey all of God's commands in the New Testament should not be done, either. Yet, Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.


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