Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[stuart lawrence]

Jesus talks about love.
He says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Is one loving Jesus today by keeping His commandments?


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Well you don't even try to obey all of Christs commandments do you.

Why some people insist you must obey each and every literal command of Christ when they don't practice what they preach amazes me

The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you

Are you eager to go to hell?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Jesus says he came not to destroy Law (Matthew 5:17).
Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
Jesus says depart from me you workers of lawlessness (Matthew 7:23 ESV).


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Who said Jesus came to destroy law?
He came to end a law if righteousness, two different things

Yes, the law has changed. Read the whole chapter! No laws of animal sacrifices, Christ is our high priest. He paid the price of our sins.
That's the law of justification now for the removal of sin!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 John 5:16-18 says there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death. Sins unto death are sins that lead to the Second Death or the Lake of Fire: Such as murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, and coveting, etc. (Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8). Sins not unto death would be sins that do not lead to the Second Death. Such sins would be not being baptized in this life (1 Peter 3:21), causing divisions in the body (1 Corinthians 3:1-15), and hidden or secret faults (Psams 19:12).


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[stuart lawrence]

1 John 5:16-18 says there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death. Sins unto death are sins that lead to the Second Death or the Lake of Fire: Such as murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, and coveting, etc. (Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8). Sins not unto death would be sins that do not lead to the Second Death. Such sins would be not being baptized in this life (1 Peter 3:21), causing divisions in the body (1 Corinthians 3:1-15), and hidden or secret faults (Psams 19:12).


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All sin can be forgiven apart from blasphemy against the Holy Spirit according to Christ matt12:31

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The context of Romans 10:4 in regards to the end of Law of righteousness to everyone who believes is in reference to Israel.

Paul says, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1).

They did not accept Jesus as their Savior.

But we are told to continue in God's goodness otherwise we could be cut off just like the Jews were.

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22).

"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." (Romans 11:21).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Besides various unforgivable sins (like speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost, taking the Mark of the Beast, and committing suicide and staying dead), most other sins unto death (like murder, hate, adultery, etc.) can be forgiven. However, we have to confess these sins and forsake them, though. For it is written,

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

"... if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." (Proverbs 28:13).


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[stuart lawrence]

I'm reading a book at the moment. Its very good. The author refers to legalistic law jkeepers as
The religious mafia

 

[stuart lawrence]

The context of Romans 10:4 in regards to the end of Law of righteousness to everyone who believes is in reference to Israel.

Paul says, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1).

They did not accept Jesus as their Savior.

But we are told to continue in God's goodness otherwise we could be cut off just like the Jews were.

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22).

"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." (Romans 11:21).


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So Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for Israelites but not gentiles??

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is written...

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." (Matthew 5:11).


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[stuart lawrence]

Besides various unforgivable sins (like speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost, taking the Mark of the Beast, and committing suicide and staying dead), most other sins unto death (like murder, hate, adultery, etc.) can be forgiven. However, we have to confess our sins and forsake these kinds of sins, though. For it is written,

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

"... if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." (Proverbs 28:13).


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But now a righteousness APART from law has been made known.....
Rom3:31


IF(if) you have been born again and the law is placed in your most inward oarts

 

[stuart lawrence]

It is written...

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." (Matthew 5:11).


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Very true.

So why was Paul persecuted in this manner?

For not preaching a law of righteousness.

The religious who refuse to accept grace will always attack those who do accept it.
For they want a righteousness of their own under the law

 

[stuart lawrence]

Of course Jesus himself reserved his harshest words for the religious hypocrites of his day, those who did not practice what they preached. To use such words on this website would, I imagine bring an instant ban

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let's not be fooled. The OSAS Proponent will say that you are to obey God and yet they will also say that they are sinners according to a wrong interpretation on 1 John 1:8 and Galatians 2:17.

The Pharisees said they had Abraham was their father. They believe in Once Saved Always Saved, too. They believed their sins did not separate them God, as well. Yet, Jesus said they did not keep His Word and they said if they were of God they would do what He says. But they didn't do what Jesus said. That's the same problem that is happening today.


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[Bible Highlighter]

The lie in the Garden of Eden is still spreading today.

"Yea, ye shall not surely die." ~ The Devil.
(See Genesis 3:4).


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[stuart lawrence]

Let's not be fooled. The OSAS Proponent will say that you are to obey God and yet they will also say that they are sinners according to a wrong interpretation on 1 John 1:8 and Galatians 2:17.

The Pharisees said they had Abraham was their father. They believe in Once Saved Always Saved, too. They believed their sins did not separate them God, as well. Yet, Jesus said they did not keep His Word and they said if they were of God they would do what He says. But they didn't do what Jesus said. That's the same problem that is happening today.


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The Pharisees ignored the higher points of the law according to Christ. They strove in earnest to obey the letter to attain heaven under a law of righteousness, but love is always the casualty of this approach.
Hence Christ said they neglected the love of God( luke11:41

Yes honest, humble people who in their hearts desire to obey God admit they do not perfectly obey him, therefore they commit sin. But according to the bible, those who follow a law of righteousness shall have sin as their master, so they are sins slave

 

[stuart lawrence]

The lie in the Garden of Eden is still spreading today.

"Yea, ye shall not surely die." ~ The Devil.
(See Genesis 3:4).


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Rom6:14

 

[stuart lawrence]

The problem today is Pharisees still exist.
They crush people with impossible demands That they themselves do not even try and attain to

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In reference to the false OSAS interpretation on Romans 6:14 that says we are not under no Law whatsoever but under grace: The context says,

22 "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:22-23).

16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
(Romans 6:16-18).

So okay. We are servants or slaves to righteousness. That is how we are free from sin. It says we used to be servants of sin as a part of our old life. It says we became servants to God with our fruit unto holiness and the end... everlasting life. Yet, the contrast is that that the wages of sins is death but the free gift is eternal life thru Jesus Christ our Lord.

6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Romans 6:6-7).

That the body of sin might be destroyed, hence, why we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Romans 6:5).

Jesus says deny yourself, pick up your cross and come follow me
(Matthew 16:24).
Paul says offer your body as a living sacrifice unto God which is our reasonable service (Romans 12:1).

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:" (1 Peter 4:1-4).

Romans 6:15
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34).

The New Living Translation says,

16 "Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.
17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you.
18 Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living."

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).

Two laws are mentioned in Romans 8:2.
One New Covenant.
And one Old Covenant.
The first Law sets us free from the other Law.
This means Law still exists.
This makes sense because Jesus said I came not to abolish Law (Matthew 5:17).
And the author of Hebrews says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).



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[supescritter]

Again Jason, thanks for being patience with your responses and taking the time to write detailed responses. I see that our exchanges are becoming more fine-tuned as we understand each other better.

For God is not against His believers obeying Him; And God does not consider those who obey Him out of fear in being punished by the Lord in the after-life to be a wrong thing, either. "For the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10). "Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." (Job 28:28, - Cross reference with James 3:13). "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). Also, the body of believers throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria walked in fear of the Lord (Acts 9:31).

But in Eternal Security, there is no reason to fear God.
One can have their cake and eat it, too.

in OSAS thinking, fear of the Lord is needed in order to realize that you need Jesus' salvation. After salvation, the lack of fear of punishment is what frees the Christian to be able to freely serve God without guilt or condemnation (in OSAS beliefs).

I mean, do you not know that one of the Commandments in the New Testament tells us this?

"Believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,." (1 John 3:23).

Here is the entire verse:

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment" (1 John 3:23).​

Are you not justified by keeping the Law or Commandment that says,
"Believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,"?

Are you not justified by keeping this Law or Commandment?
In other words, this means you are under some kind of Law.
Paul was not talking about all Law whatsoever (or the Commands given to us in the New Testament). For Jesus says, "Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say?" (Luke 6:46). To put it to you another way, God is not lawless; And neither are God's people lawless, either.

I hear what you're saying, and I agree that we are under law to some degree, but I just wonder whether not keeping those laws really result in going to hell.

Well, you are going off your own life experience. But believers walk by faith and not by sight. You cannot go off of what you see. For again, your struggle is not normal for seasoned believers. For your situation is simply not true for many believers who walk uprightly in Jesus Christ thru out history and today. There are many days where I have not struggled with lustful or hateful thoughts. However, it is not something that just comes to you. You have to apply the methods within God's Word and ask for Jesus's help to overcome sin in your life. There are many verses that talk about such a thing. Such verses would not exist if a Sin and Still Be Saved Gospel was true. On the contrary, the Scriptures teach against Easy Believism (See James 2:17-24).

actually I'm going off 2 things:
1. I sincerely believe the Bible says we cannot be perfectly without sin - we cannot keep the law
2. I believe the "laws" given in the NT are much much harder to follow than the OT. When the OT says "do not murder", the NT says "anger is murder" - it goes one step further - it's a higher standard.

Those 2 things are giving me pause. Am I going on a journey that is doomed to fail? I am heartened that you claim to have been able to achieve a sinless life but based on my belief in the two points above, I wonder if it's really achievable for me. One example is lying. So a person asks you "do you think I look fat?", you say "no" and then boom - you're off to hell? That is what we're talking about here. A strict interpretation of Revelations 21:8 says exactly that.

Then you obviously have never looked at all 613 Commands in the Old Testament and carefully considered in doing them. Nobody can be honest with themselves and say that following all those rituals are easier to accomplish than the Commands in the New Testament. The New Testament Commands are based on God's Eternal Moral Law of Love.

you provided a link showing that Christians are supposed to follow 1050 commands in the NT. I clearly see that there are in fact zealous followers of Judaism who appear to follow 613 commands, but I don't believe there is one person who can follow all 1050 commands of the NT.

You've made some good arguments for why you think we should follow the NT commandments, can we now shift this a little to whether they are a heavier or lighter burden than the OT commandments?

For example: lying. I've read that the commandment "thou shall not give false testimony" means "don't get your neighbor in trouble on based false information" but NT verses (eg. Rev 21:8) merely say "liars go to hell" without specifying which lies are good or bad (eg. Rahab's lie is considered good by most scholars because it prevented the greater sin of murder). One is forced to accept the possibility that ANY lie will send you to hell, including telling your friend she is not fat, or telling your friend "things are great" when they greet you with "how are you today?". Therefore the NT version of the OT law is a much much harder standard to follow. And this is just one example.

Another one is greed: OT just says don't covet your neighbour's things; NT says wanting ANYTHING other than what you already have sends you to hell (according to "CS" thinking) - NT standard is much more difficult to follow.

Eating kosher, or wearing certain clothes soon enough become a lifestyle, but the NT laws cover behavior to such extremities that it becomes a much greater burden. I see Jesus as restoring somewhat the perfect life of Adam and Even before the fall, where life with the Creator was peaceful. But believing that NT laws will send you to hell is not that peaceful life. That doesn't mean it isn't the truth, but we need to admit that it is what it is.

Also, Eternal Torment is not Biblical. So the fear of God torturing a person in flames for all eternity is not true.

you've made this argument a few times, but honestly the threat of eternal non-existence is no better than eternal torment. It is not worth making that argument as both are bad.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well again, we have to remember, the devil said to Eve,

"Yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).​

This same lie is being pushed today by the OSAS crowd.
You can sin (i.e. break God's commands) and you will not die.

Does this lie from the devil still apply to believers today?

Yes. For Paul says,

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." (2 Corinthians 11:3).

13 "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

What is the simplicity of Christ?

Well, Jesus's words are simple. Yet, others did not understand Him (even today).

For example: Jesus said to the Pharisees,

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:34).

Now, why did the Pharisees not understand Jesus?
Jesus says those who are of God hears (obeys) God's Word.

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47).

John says, in 1 John 3:10,
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

John also said in 1 John 2:29,
"Ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

In addition, John also said,
7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil."
(1 John 3:7-8).

Jesus said that the Pharisees desired to sin (i.e. to kill Jesus) because His word had no place within them.

"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you." (John 8:37).

Jesus says if we keep His sayings, we will never see death (i.e. Meaning we will have everlasting life).

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." (John 8:51).

Christ's words here are simple.

Are you keeping the words of Jesus whereby you will then not see death?

It's simple to understand.


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