Once a Catholic Always a Catholic?

[garee]

false

Trent:

These things having been explained, it will be necessary to enumerate the several component parts of the Church, and to point out their difference, in order that the faithful may the better comprehend the nature, properties, gifts, and graces of God’s beloved Church, and by reason of them unceasingly praise the most holy name of God.

The Church consists principally of two parts, the one called the Church triumphant; the other, the Church militant. The Church triumphant is that most glorious and happy assemblage of blessed spirits, and of those who have triumphed over the world, the flesh, and the iniquity of Satan, and are now exempt and safe from the troubles of this life and enjoy everlasting bliss. The Church militant is the society of all the faithful still dwelling on earth. It is called militant, because it wages eternal war with those implacable enemies, the world, the flesh and the devil.

We are not, however, to infer that there are two Churches. The Church triumphant and the Church militant are two constituent parts of one Church; one part going before, and now in the possession of its heavenly country; the other, following every day, until at length, united with our Saviour, it shall repose in endless felicity.

The Members Of The Church Militant

The Church militant is composed of two classes of persons, the good and the bad, both professing the same faith and partaking of the same Sacraments, yet differing in their manner of life and morality.

The good are those who are linked together not only by the profession of the same faith, and the participation of the same Sacraments, but also by the spirit of grace and the bond of charity. Of these St. Paul says: The Lord knoweth who are his. Who they are that compose this class we also may remotely conjecture, but we can by no means pronounce with certainty. Hence Christ the Saviour does not speak of this portion of His Church when He refers us to the Church and commands us to hear and to obey her. As this part of the Church is unknown, how could we ascertain with certainty whose decision to recur to, whose authority to obey?

The Church, therefore, as the Scriptures and the writings of the Saints testify, includes within her fold the good and the bad; and it was in this sense that St. Paul spoke of one body and one spirit. Thus understood, the Church is known and is compared to a city built on a mountain, and visible from every side. As all must yield obedience to her authority, it is necessary that she may-be known by all.

That the Church is composed of the good and the bad we learn from many parables contained in the Gospel. Thus, the kingdom of heaven, that is, the Church militant, is compared to a net cast into the sea, to a field in which tares were sown with the good grain, to a threshing floor on which the grain is mixed up with the chaff, and also to ten virgins, some of whom were wise, and some foolish. And long before, we trace a figure and resemblance of this Church in the ark of Noah, which contained not only clean, but also unclean animals.

But although the Catholic faith uniformly and truly teaches that the good and the bad belong to the Church, yet the same faith declares that the condition of both is very different. The wicked are contained in the Church, as the chaff is mingled with the grain on the threshing floor, or as dead members sometimes remain attached to a living body.

Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church’s pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted

I would offer.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

It would seem the Son of man, Jesus, the chief apostle and high priest did the will of the unseen father .Its how he made he requests. Father in heaven thy will be done not my own flesh . Not our mother in heaven. God is not a man He is eternal Spirit. It would seem you are turning things upside down as if inspired from earth (Rome) bound in heaven .His doctines fall down like rain. That leaves no purpose reserved for our unseen Holy Father. The Holy See, the infallible one

Not one witness of Our Mother in heaven hallowed by her name.

 

[Cis.jd]

Here is one question.

If a Catholic isn't a Catholic (ever/anymore) because of his/her civil views against abortion. What do you guys think of people in the vatican who have sexual abuse reports, like Theodore McCarmic ? These sexual abuse are obviously homosexual acts so it's a massive double wrong in it self.

 

[mama2one]

follow

 

[parousia70]

Based on what I've read of Catholic theology once you're a Catholic you're considered a Catholic for life regardless of what other Christian denomination you choose to join.

You can’t quit the mob either...

 

[Valletta]

I don't think I went that way because I did say:


EDIT: Also, I was told just today that if excommunicated, one still has an opportunity to repent and be accepted back in the Church. The rub is usually when that happens it's because someone is living in some kind of obscene situation or has done something egregious and they refuse to repent or stop what they are doing. In the old days, it was also done for political reasons (like extorting a king or something) but I think they don't do that anymore.
So I'm not promoting any particular theology. I am looking to discuss how we and the Church for that matter respond to those who fall away.

Some say that if you fall away, you were never converted in the first place. Some say one can get lost but through repentance, you can find your way back to God. So in addition to the original question, when you make a statement of faith and are accepted into a church (or in my case The Church as it were), at what point are you no longer a sheep?

Using sheep as a metaphor I can see that a sheep who gets lost, could easily be devoured by a wolf. I can also see a case where a sheep gets lost, goes through a time in the wilderness of starvation, injury, and terror but either finds their way back to the shepherd or the shepherd finds the sheep and it is able to rejoin the flock, be lead to water, a green pasture, and have its wounds attended to.

I guess at the heart of this discussion I would like to see what people think is happening in that situation. Did the sheep return to the shepherd or did the shepherd find the sheep? Can it happen either way?

I'm not trying to prove a particular view is right or wrong, I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts about it.

Excommunication is the strongest warning that the Church can give to the effect that a person is going down the wrong path. You of course have the opportunity to repent at any time.

 

[concretecamper]

I would offer.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

It would seem the Son of man, Jesus, the chief apostle and high priest did the will of the unseen father .Its how he made he requests. Father in heaven thy will be done not my own flesh . Not our mother in heaven. God is not a man He is eternal Spirit. It would seem you are turning things upside down as if inspired from earth (Rome) bound in heaven .His doctines fall down like rain. That leaves no purpose reserved for our unseen Holy Father. The Holy See, the infallible one

Not one witness of Our Mother in heaven hallowed by her name.

thank you for contributing nothing or addressing anything about my post

 

[parousia70]

Here is one question.
If a Catholic isn't a Catholic (ever/anymore) because of his/her civil views against abortion. What do you guys think of people in the vatican who have sexual abuse reports, like Theodore McCarmic ? These sexual abuse are obviously homosexual acts so it's a massive double wrong in it self.

Interesting... As far as I am aware, the unrepentant heterosexual Liar, or unrepentant heterosexual glutton, or unrepentant heterosexual adulterer, unrepentant heterosexual idol worshipper wind up in the exact same lake of fire right next to the unrepentant homosexual abuser.... so I'm not sure what the "massive" extra worseness is, of this "double wrong" you speak of?

 

[Michie]

I think there is a difference in a baptized Catholic and a practicing Catholic. Many call themselves Catholic but do not follow the teaching of the Church. You’ll know them by their fruits.

 

[Norbert L]

Yes, but it's a theory that, while understandable, doesn't have any practical application.

I'm not sure about having no practical application because I often wondered how the RCC would treat someone who was baptized as an infant but never attended. I did have some baptismal paperwork around somewhere. Who knows, maybe that just boils down to less paperwork if such a person wanted to become a member of that church.

 

[Albion]

I'm not sure about having no practical application because I often wondered how the RCC would treat someone who was baptized as an infant but never attended.

He'd be considered to be under the authority of the RCC, but of course the Catholic Church wouldn't do anything about it. If the person were to make known that he wanted to become active as a member, he wouldn't be re-baptized, but there's nothing much more to say about it.

I did have some baptismal paperwork around somewhere. Who knows, maybe that just boils down to less paperwork if such a person wanted to become a member of that church.

If you have a baptismal certificate, great. If you don't, the parish in which you were baptized might have the record of it. If not, you'd probably be conditionally baptized, which is very common. The sacrament of Confirmation might follow, and you might be asked to take the usual instruction classes, but none of it is intimidating or complicated.

 

[Cis.jd]

Interesting... As far as I am aware, the unrepentant heterosexual Liar, or unrepentant heterosexual glutton, or unrepentant heterosexual adulterer, unrepentant heterosexual idol worshipper wind up in the exact same lake of fire right next to the unrepentant homosexual abuser.... so I'm not sure what the "massive" extra worseness is, of this "double wrong" you speak of?

Do you agree if they should be ex-communicated? If yes, are they?

 

[rturner76]

@Albion In my situation, being baptized in a Lutheran Church (WELS), they actually just took my word for it which surprised me. I thought I would have to be rebaptized so that they could be sure of it's validity. I guess they figured that God knows, and if I lied about it, that would be between me and God.

I did have to go through what basically amounts to adult confirmation. I would think a baptised Cathoilc who never went through the communion "class" in elementary nor went through the middle school age Confirmation, they would go through RCIA like I did.

My mom, who was baptized and confirmed but was afraid to go to Mass because she was divorced, was inspired by my course in the Church. and My Parish offers a course called "Catholics coming home." She found a life-changing experience there where the Priest basically said, "Are you sorry for any sin you've committed?" (didn't wait for an answer). He went on to say "you are back home and God wants you at his table for communion." A huge sandbag she'd carried around for 59 years suddenly evaporated and we have enjoyed the Eucharist together many times.

Was she Catholic during her "hiatus?" I don't know but she is now. Praise God when anyone return to any Church of Christ!

Not really a response to anything but I thought I;d share that.

 

[Michie]

Do you agree if they should be ex-communicated? If yes, are they?

People can excommunicate themselves but I do not think homosexuality qualifies. Going to have an abortion is an act of self excommunication.

 

[parousia70]

Do you agree if they should be ex-communicated? If yes, are they?

Thankfully that's above my paygrade.

People can excommunicate themselves

Weren't you just speaking about professed Catholics in name only making erroneous claims that aren't part of Church teaching?

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Excommunication

Who can excommunicate?
Excommunication is an act of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, the rules of which it follows. Hence the general principle: whoever has jurisdiction in the forum externum, properly so called, can excommunicate, but only his own subjects. Therefore, whether excommunications be a jure (by the law) or ab homine (under form of sentence or precept), they may come from the pope alone or a general council for the entire Church; from the provincial council for an ecclesiastical province; from the bishop for his diocese; from the prelate nullius for quasi-diocesan territories; and from regular prelates for religious orders. Moreover, anyone can excommunicate who, by virtue of his office, even when delegated, has contentious jurisdiction in the forum externum; for instance, papal legates, vicars capitular, and vicars-general. But a parish priest cannot inflict this penalty nor even declare that it is incurred, i.e. he cannot do so in an official and judicial manner. The subjects of these various authorities are those who come under their jurisdiction chiefly on account of domicile or quasi-domicile in their territory; then by reason of the offence committed while on such territory; and finally by reason of personal right, as in the case of regulars.

I see nothing about the individual Catholic having ANY authority, or "ecclesiastical jurisdiction" to meter out the punishment of excommunication upon themselves.

 

[Michie]

Thankfully that's above my paygrade.

Weren't you just speaking about professed Catholics in name only making erroneous claims that aren't part of Church teaching?

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Excommunication

Who can excommunicate?
Excommunication is an act of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, the rules of which it follows. Hence the general principle: whoever has jurisdiction in the forum externum, properly so called, can excommunicate, but only his own subjects. Therefore, whether excommunications be a jure (by the law) or ab homine (under form of sentence or precept), they may come from the pope alone or a general council for the entire Church; from the provincial council for an ecclesiastical province; from the bishop for his diocese; from the prelate nullius for quasi-diocesan territories; and from regular prelates for religious orders. Moreover, anyone can excommunicate who, by virtue of his office, even when delegated, has contentious jurisdiction in the forum externum; for instance, papal legates, vicars capitular, and vicars-general. But a parish priest cannot inflict this penalty nor even declare that it is incurred, i.e. he cannot do so in an official and judicial manner. The subjects of these various authorities are those who come under their jurisdiction chiefly on account of domicile or quasi-domicile in their territory; then by reason of the offence committed while on such territory; and finally by reason of personal right, as in the case of regulars.

I see nothing about the individual Catholic having ANY authority, or "ecclesiastical jurisdiction" to meter out the punishment of excommunication upon themselves.

I never said anything about people making erroneous claims about Church teaching here.

Seriously. People can and do excommunicate themselves by their actions. This was discussed in RCIA . I mean....lol it depends if they do something knowingly.

 

[Michie]

Apart from Abortion, Are There Other Sins That Incur Automatic Excommunication?

Question:
Having an abortion means automatic excommunication from the Church. Are there other sins that carry this penalty?

Answer:
Yes. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law (CIC) eight other sins carry the penalty of automatic excommunication: apostasy, heresy, schism (CIC 1364:1), violating the sacred species (CIC 1367), physically attacking the pope (CIC 1370:1), sacramentally absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin (CIC 1378:1), consecrating a bishop without authorization (CIC 1382), and directly violating the seal of confession (1388:1).

Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith. Heresy is the obstinate doubt or denial, after baptism, of a defined Catholic doctrine. Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or the refusal to be in communion with members of the Church who are in communion with him (CIC 751).

Violation of the sacred species is the throwing away the consecrated species of Christ’s body or blood or the taking or retaining of them for a sacrilegious purpose (CIC 1367).

Physically attacking the pope is self-explanatory, as are absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin and consecrating a bishop without authorization from the Vatican.

A direct violation of the seal of confession is one in which both the penitent and the penitent’s sin can easily be determined by the confessor’s words or behavior. Again, the penalty of automatic excommunication does not apply if no one perceives the disclosure (CIC 1330).

Automatic excommunication for abortion (CIC 1398) applies not only to the woman who has the abortion, but to “all those who commit this crime with knowledge of the penalty attached, and [this] includes those accomplices without whose help the crime would not have been committed” (Evangelium Vitae 62).

No one is automatically excommunicated for any offense if, without any fault of his own, he was unaware that he was violating a law (CIC 1323:2) or that a penalty was attached to the law (CIC 1324:1:9). The same applies if one was a minor, had the imperfect use of reason, was forced through grave or relatively grave fear, was forced through serious inconvenience, or in certain other circumstances (CIC 1324).

Apart from Abortion, Are There Other Sins That Incur Automatic Excommunication?

 

[Valletta]

People can excommunicate themselves but I do not think homosexuality qualifies. Going to have an abortion is an act of self excommunication.

Do you agree if they should be ex-communicated? If yes, are they?

Excommunication is the strongest and final warning the Catholic Church may give. At a minimum a person must be un-repentent.

 

[Cis.jd]

People can excommunicate themselves but I do not think homosexuality qualifies. Going to have an abortion is an act of self excommunication.

It's not just homosexuality but sexual assault. I'm not comparing sins here, or saying that abortion is a small sin in comparison but sexual assault is not to be taken lightly. In fact, abortion can have chances of being due to extreme circumstances but what circumstances can for sexually preying on someone?

'm not prochoice but we have to be real here. The corruption with in the church is serious and it is strange as to how prochoice people's views are worthy of excommunication but actual church leaders forcing homosexual acts on other people isn't?

 

[Michie]

It's not just homosexuality but sexual assault. I'm not comparing sins here, or saying that abortion is small sin in comparison but sexual assault is no way an inferior sin. In fact, abortion can be reasoned with through extreme circumstances, what circumstances can there be for a man of God to sexually prey on someone?

The point is we have to admit as to how serious the corruption with in the church is. I'm not prochoice but it is strange as to how prochoice people's views are worthy of excommunication but actual church leaders forcing homosexual acts on other people isn't?

Your guess is as good as mine. My guess would be it depends if the offender is repentant. There are a lot of things that happen in the Church that leave me completely befuddled. I’m a lowly convert and no expert in canon law.

 

[Michie]

....On the other hand, a person can also incur automatic excommunication. A person who is an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic (#1364); or one who procures a successful abortion (#1398) is automatically excommunicated. In these cases, the local ordinary or a delegated priest can remit the penalty.

In some very grievous cases, only the Holy See can lift the ban of an automatic excommunication: if a person desecrates the Blessed Sacrament or uses it for a sacrilegious purpose (#1367); if a person uses physical force against the Pope (#1370); if a priest absolves an accomplice in a sin against the Sixth Commandment (#1378); if a bishop consecrates someone as a bishop without permission of the Holy Father (#1982); and if a priest directly violates the seal of confession (#1388).

We must keep in mind that the purpose of excommunication is to shock the sinner into repentance and conversion. Excommunication is a powerful way of making a person realize his immortal soul is in jeopardy. Excommunication does not “lock the door” of the Church to the person forever, but hopes to bring the person back into communion with the whole Church. Moreover, this penalty awakens all of the faithful to the severity of these sins and deters them from the commission of these sins. This line of thought is highlighted in the Catechism when it speaks of the automatic excommunication for abortion: “The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society” (#2272). In all, while the Church imposes this severe penalty for just cause, she also remembers, “A heart contrite and humbled, O God, you will not spurn” (Psalm 51:19).

Continued below.
What is excommunication? - Catholic Straight Answers