Once a Catholic Always a Catholic?

[rturner76]

True or False:

Explain:

Here's what I think. First, I was brought into the fold through RCIA. I am not sure what is said at the "normal" confirmation. Keeping in mind that both RCIA and Confirmation are both mostly a confirmation that you and the church still recognize your baptism. That baptism was the entry into the church. At that point, we were adopted by God as his child.

Here is what the Church confirmed at that time (RCIA)

Laying on of Hands Presider:
With hands joined, the Presider invites the people to prayer. Dear friends, let us pray to God the almighty Father, for these, his adopted sons and daughters, already born again to eternal life in Baptism, that he will graciously pour out the Holy Spirit upon them to confirm them with his abundant gifts, and through his anointing, conform them more fully to Christ, the Son of God.

After a brief moment of silence, the Presider extends his hands over the entire group and says the following prayer.

All-powerful God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who brought these your servants to new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, freeing them from sin: send upon them, O Lord, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete; give them the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and fortitude, the spirit of knowledge and piety; fill them with the spirit of the fear of the Lord. Through Christ our Lord. R/ Amen

The part I underlined above is what made me decide that yes, once a Catholic always a Catholic. When you are adopted by a parent, you remain that parent's son or daughter for life.
You can however be estranged from that parent and even deny them publically. However, since your adoption, you remain a child of that parent

What do you think?

 

[Albion]

I don't get how the underlined words lead you to that conclusion.

As for the general expression, "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic," this is the Catholic Church's view of itself. But the Church also thinks that it has jurisdiction (even though it cannot exercise it) over ALL baptized Christians of whatever denomination.

So if a person is a Catholic, that may mean something to him as a theological concept; if he is a non-Catholic, it doesn't have any significance.

 

[Grumpmeister Supreme!]

Based on what I've read of Catholic theology once you're a Catholic you're considered a Catholic for life regardless of what other Christian denomination you choose to join.

 

[Albion]

Based on what I've read of Catholic theology once you're a Catholic you're considered a Catholic for life regardless of what other Christian denomination you choose to join.

Yes, but it's a theory that, while understandable, doesn't have any practical application.

 

[bèlla]

I don't agree with the statement. I was raised Catholic. Baptized and received my holy communion. But I wasn't confirmed. I had theological differences and wouldn't do it. I'm the only one who didn't.

I attended a monastic weekend during a period of discernment. I didn't believe I was called to be nun. But I wanted to make sure. I enjoyed the experience and contemplated becoming an oblate. But I'm not Catholic. The absence of agreement was the deciding factor in all instances.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

 

[com7fy8]

I was brought into the fold through RCIA.

Our Apostle Paul says,

"we who first trusted in Christ" (in Ephesians 1:12).

So, we are brought into the fold of Christ's sheep, I see from this, by trusting in Jesus.

And what is guaranteed to happen if we become and live and Christ's sheep?

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, when God has a person become "one spirit with" Jesus . . . what is sure to happen? Jesus says >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

Jesus in union with us gives us rest, in the almighty power of His peace. This is included, this is basic. And in union with Him we are submissive to how our Father rules us in His own peace, as is commanded to every child of God > "in one body" >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

Our Apostle Paul here says how "in one body" we "were called" to this; so this is part of our basic Christian calling as Jesus Christ's fold. Every one of us is called to submit to how our Father personally rules us in His very own peace. And Paul also guarantees >

"the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" > this scripture is in Philippians 4:6-7. God is almighty; so His peace is almighty . . . to guard our hearts and minds against any and all emotional and mental chaos and anti-love things like fear and unforgiveness and self-righteous judging and lusts. And our Creator makes us creative in His peace, for how to love each and every person. Because God is all-loving >

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

So, these are Bible basic things of living and loving in Jesus Christ's fold. So, have you been clearly taught these things?

If you have been taught by ones who obey and teach what has come through Jesus and His apostles, they have made sure you know these things, plus they minister grace of God in us (Philippians 2:13) who has us succeed to live and love this way.

So, having some correct label is not enough.

There are ones who say they have been baptized so they have a label. Others say they said a prayer so they have a label. But God's word says we need to be turned "from the power of Satan to God" (Acts 26:18) so we are with God by submitting to how His grace changes us and personally guides us in His peace.

Getting a religious label does not do this. The true and obedient apostolic succession ministers this.

James says, then >

"Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7)

 

[rturner76]

Our Apostle Paul says,

"we who first trusted in Christ" (in Ephesians 1:12).

So, we are brought into the fold of Christ's sheep, I see from this, by trusting in Jesus.

And what is guaranteed to happen if we become and live and Christ's sheep?

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, when God has a person become "one spirit with" Jesus . . . what is sure to happen? Jesus says >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

Jesus in union with us gives us rest, in the almighty power of His peace. This is included, this is basic. And in union with Him we are submissive to how our Father rules us in His own peace, as is commanded to every child of God > "in one body" >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

Our Apostle Paul here says how "in one body" we "were called" to this; so this is part of our basic Christian calling as Jesus Christ's fold. Every one of us is called to submit to how our Father personally rules us in His very own peace. And Paul also guarantees >

"the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" > this scripture is in Philippians 4:6-7. God is almighty; so His peace is almighty . . . to guard our hearts and minds against any and all emotional and mental chaos and anti-love things like fear and unforgiveness and self-righteous judging and lusts. And our Creator makes us creative in His peace, for how to love each and every person. Because God is all-loving >

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

So, these are Bible basic things of living and loving in Jesus Christ's fold. So, have you been clearly taught these things?

If you have been taught by ones who obey and teach what has come through Jesus and His apostles, they have made sure you know these things, plus they minister grace of God in us (Philippians 2:13) who has us succeed to live and love this way.

So, having some correct label is not enough.

There are ones who say they have been baptized so they have a label. Others say they said a prayer so they have a label. But God's word says we need to be turned "from the power of Satan to God" (Acts 26:18) so we are with God by submitting to how His grace changes us and personally guides us in His peace.

Getting a religious label does not do this. The true and obedient apostolic succession ministers this.

James says, then >

"Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7)

So false then?

When we walk away from God he also abandons us? That would make sense that is someone dies an unrepentant sinner they may have no respite. So were they never regenerated in the first place?

Does God ever call back those who abandon the path for another religion, the illness of addiction, the pursuit of mammon, and such things? Is it our duty as Christians to walk away from these people who turn back to sin or do we attempt to minister to them? You know the whole pearls before swine issue.

From what I gather from your response it seems that if someone goes away from the path they were never really on the path, to begin with. they were never fully converted. Was that your meaning?

 

[BNR32FAN]

True or False:

Explain:

Here's what I think. First, I was brought into the fold through RCIA. I am not sure what is said at the "normal" confirmation. Keeping in mind that both RCIA and Confirmation are both mostly a confirmation that you and the church still recognize your baptism. That baptism was the entry into the church. At that point, we were adopted by God as his child.

Here is what the Church confirmed at that time (RCIA)

Laying on of Hands Presider:
With hands joined, the Presider invites the people to prayer. Dear friends, let us pray to God the almighty Father, for these, his adopted sons and daughters, already born again to eternal life in Baptism, that he will graciously pour out the Holy Spirit upon them to confirm them with his abundant gifts, and through his anointing, conform them more fully to Christ, the Son of God.

After a brief moment of silence, the Presider extends his hands over the entire group and says the following prayer.

All-powerful God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who brought these your servants to new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, freeing them from sin: send upon them, O Lord, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete; give them the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and fortitude, the spirit of knowledge and piety; fill them with the spirit of the fear of the Lord. Through Christ our Lord. R/ Amen

The part I underlined above is what made me decide that yes, once a Catholic always a Catholic. When you are adopted by a parent, you remain that parent's son or daughter for life.
You can however be estranged from that parent and even deny them publically. However, since your adoption, you remain a child of that parent

What do you think?

This sounds like eternal security. To my knowledge the Catholic Church has always refuted eternal security. Not to mention many people have been excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

 

[rturner76]

This sounds like eternal security. To my knowledge the Catholic Church has always refuted eternal security. Not to mention many people have been excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

I don't think I went that way because I did say:

That would make sense that is someone dies an unrepentant sinner they may have no respite.

EDIT: Also, I was told just today that if excommunicated, one still has an opportunity to repent and be accepted back in the Church. The rub is usually when that happens it's because someone is living in some kind of obscene situation or has done something egregious and they refuse to repent or stop what they are doing. In the old days, it was also done for political reasons (like extorting a king or something) but I think they don't do that anymore.
So I'm not promoting any particular theology. I am looking to discuss how we and the Church for that matter respond to those who fall away.

Some say that if you fall away, you were never converted in the first place. Some say one can get lost but through repentance, you can find your way back to God. So in addition to the original question, when you make a statement of faith and are accepted into a church (or in my case The Church as it were), at what point are you no longer a sheep?

Using sheep as a metaphor I can see that a sheep who gets lost, could easily be devoured by a wolf. I can also see a case where a sheep gets lost, goes through a time in the wilderness of starvation, injury, and terror but either finds their way back to the shepherd or the shepherd finds the sheep and it is able to rejoin the flock, be lead to water, a green pasture, and have its wounds attended to.

I guess at the heart of this discussion I would like to see what people think is happening in that situation. Did the sheep return to the shepherd or did the shepherd find the sheep? Can it happen either way?

I'm not trying to prove a particular view is right or wrong, I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts about it.

 

[rturner76]

I don't get how the underlined words lead you to that conclusion.

As for the general expression, "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic," this is the Catholic Church's view of itself. But the Church also thinks that it has jurisdiction (even though it cannot exercise it) over ALL baptized Christians of whatever denomination.

So if a person is a Catholic, that may mean something to him as a theological concept; if he is a non-Catholic, it doesn't have any significance.

Correct, so for someone like you the question would be "once a Christian always a Christian?" I posted on the Catholic point of view because this is the denomination specific section and TBH, I am more interested in the Catholic point of view on this topic than the views of the other hundred thousand denominations, though including everyone's view would make the thread more robust and probably more interesting, if not more of a debate.

 

[rturner76]

I don't agree with the statement. I was raised Catholic. Baptized and received my holy communion. But I wasn't confirmed. I had theological differences and wouldn't do it. I'm the only one who didn't.

I attended a monastic weekend during a period of discernment. I didn't believe I was called to be nun. But I wanted to make sure. I enjoyed the experience and contemplated becoming an oblate. But I'm not Catholic. The absence of agreement was the deciding factor in all instances.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

Thank you for your response. I can totally relate to the desire to dedicate your life to God and follow an established "Rule" as the monastics call it. However, if you fundamentally disagree with critical aspects the people of the Rule believe, you will likely never find peace there.

I think it would be cool if some other denominations organized a monastic organization for their denomination. However I think most reformed churches find monastic lif an unnatural way to live and they focus more on the Christian family life of man, woman, child. I think missionary life would be the closest thing to monastery life. Full 24-hour dedication to God's work.

Have you ever considered a missionary or Pastoral call? There can be a difference in that some monasteries are focused on cloistered contemplation. That's quite different than a mission.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't think I went that way because I did say:


EDIT: Also, I was told just today that if excommunicated, one still has an opportunity to repent and be accepted back in the Church. The rub is usually when that happens it's because someone is living in some kind of obscene situation or has done something egregious and they refuse to repent or stop what they are doing. In the old days, it was also done for political reasons (like extorting a king or something) but I think they don't do that anymore.
So I'm not promoting any particular theology. I am looking to discuss how we and the Church for that matter respond to those who fall away.

Some say that if you fall away, you were never converted in the first place. Some say one can get lost but through repentance, you can find your way back to God. So in addition to the original question, when you make a statement of faith and are accepted into a church (or in my case The Church as it were), at what point are you no longer a sheep?

Using sheep as a metaphor I can see that a sheep who gets lost, could easily be devoured by a wolf. I can also see a case where a sheep gets lost, goes through a time in the wilderness of starvation, injury, and terror but either finds their way back to the shepherd or the shepherd finds the sheep and it is able to rejoin the flock, be lead to water, a green pasture, and have its wounds attended to.

I guess at the heart of this discussion I would like to see what people think is happening in that situation. Did the sheep return to the shepherd or did the shepherd find the sheep? Can it happen either way?

I'm not trying to prove a particular view is right or wrong, I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts about it.

I believe once a person receives the Holy Spirit he will forever be urged to repent hence Ephesians 4:30. So the Spirit will always be calling a person to repent but the choice must be made by the individual. The Holy Spirit will not take over and force a person to repent. We must act in cooperation with the Spirit to receive salvation.

 

[bèlla]

Thank you for your response. I can totally relate to the desire to dedicate your life to God and follow an established "Rule" as the monastics call it.

I was blessed to have kind priests and nuns who generously shared their faith and answered my questions growing up. They nurtured my hunger for God and I’m thankful for the experiences. I’ve always felt a great sense of calm and peace in certain settings. I spent many hours in the rectory and public living quarters and felt at home. That held true at the monastery too. I cried like a baby before I left. I found love in those walls and I'll never forget them.

However, if you fundamentally disagree with critical aspects the people of the Rule believe, you will likely never find peace there.

The Rule wasn't the issue. It was a strict sect and that didn't bother me. But there are tenets within Catholicism I don't agree with. I'm not called to be a nun nor could I pledge myself as an oblate with those differences in mind.

I think it would be cool if some other denominations organized a monastic organization for their denomination.

There's alternatives and I found them. It's a commitment and I don't feel the Lord leading me in that direction.

Have you ever considered a missionary or Pastoral call? There can be a difference in that some monasteries are focused on cloistered contemplation. That's quite different than a mission.

I'm not called to the pastorate or mission field. I went through a missionary discernment program to be certain. I have a deep reverence for God that existed from childhood. But He needs me in the marketplace. That's where I belong.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

 

[concretecamper]

True or False:

false

Trent:

These things having been explained, it will be necessary to enumerate the several component parts of the Church, and to point out their difference, in order that the faithful may the better comprehend the nature, properties, gifts, and graces of God’s beloved Church, and by reason of them unceasingly praise the most holy name of God.

The Church consists principally of two parts, the one called the Church triumphant; the other, the Church militant. The Church triumphant is that most glorious and happy assemblage of blessed spirits, and of those who have triumphed over the world, the flesh, and the iniquity of Satan, and are now exempt and safe from the troubles of this life and enjoy everlasting bliss. The Church militant is the society of all the faithful still dwelling on earth. It is called militant, because it wages eternal war with those implacable enemies, the world, the flesh and the devil.

We are not, however, to infer that there are two Churches. The Church triumphant and the Church militant are two constituent parts of one Church; one part going before, and now in the possession of its heavenly country; the other, following every day, until at length, united with our Saviour, it shall repose in endless felicity.

The Members Of The Church Militant

The Church militant is composed of two classes of persons, the good and the bad, both professing the same faith and partaking of the same Sacraments, yet differing in their manner of life and morality.

The good are those who are linked together not only by the profession of the same faith, and the participation of the same Sacraments, but also by the spirit of grace and the bond of charity. Of these St. Paul says: The Lord knoweth who are his. Who they are that compose this class we also may remotely conjecture, but we can by no means pronounce with certainty. Hence Christ the Saviour does not speak of this portion of His Church when He refers us to the Church and commands us to hear and to obey her. As this part of the Church is unknown, how could we ascertain with certainty whose decision to recur to, whose authority to obey?

The Church, therefore, as the Scriptures and the writings of the Saints testify, includes within her fold the good and the bad; and it was in this sense that St. Paul spoke of one body and one spirit. Thus understood, the Church is known and is compared to a city built on a mountain, and visible from every side. As all must yield obedience to her authority, it is necessary that she may-be known by all.

That the Church is composed of the good and the bad we learn from many parables contained in the Gospel. Thus, the kingdom of heaven, that is, the Church militant, is compared to a net cast into the sea, to a field in which tares were sown with the good grain, to a threshing floor on which the grain is mixed up with the chaff, and also to ten virgins, some of whom were wise, and some foolish. And long before, we trace a figure and resemblance of this Church in the ark of Noah, which contained not only clean, but also unclean animals.

But although the Catholic faith uniformly and truly teaches that the good and the bad belong to the Church, yet the same faith declares that the condition of both is very different. The wicked are contained in the Church, as the chaff is mingled with the grain on the threshing floor, or as dead members sometimes remain attached to a living body.

Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church’s pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted

 

[concretecamper]

I don't agree with the statement. I was raised Catholic. Baptized and received my holy communion

how anyone is raised does not make one Catholic. Baptism incorporates one into the Body of Christ....the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostalic Church (Roman Catholic Church). After Baptism, there are many things that can happen that separates one from His Body.

 

[bèlla]

how anyone is raised does not make one Catholic. Baptism incorporates one into the Body of Christ....the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostalic Church (Roman Catholic Church). After Baptism, there are many things that can happen that separates one from His Body.

I did not choose Catholicism. It was chosen on my behalf during a period when I lacked the knowledge and spiritual maturity to do so. When I reached that place, I made the choice in accordance to God’s plans and purposes. I’m where I belong.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

 

[concretecamper]

I did not choose Catholicism. It was chosen on my behalf during a period when I lacked the knowledge and spiritual maturity to do so.

or maybe God chose you.

 

[garee]

Correct, so for someone like you the question would be "once a Christian always a Christian?" I posted on the Catholic point of view because this is the denomination specific section and TBH, I am more interested in the Catholic point of view on this topic than the views of the other hundred thousand denominations, though including everyone's view would make the thread more robust and probably more interesting, if not more of a debate.

I think the focus is more how can we hear God not seen as the eternal things of God and not the temporal things of men. What does his Spirit say to the churches or sects?

I would offer to begin with we walk by faith of God. . . the unseen eternal not according to the temporal what the eyes see. (faith of men as oral traditions)

If we are to seek the approval of our Holy Father loving commandment 2 Timothy 2:15 not seen. . . study in order to seek His approval , we must apply the prescriptions he has given us, not leaving us as orphans comfortless without a unseen teacher master .No man can serve two teaching masters .God and man .

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

We are not adopted into a fleshly earthly family but rather a spiritual family as new creatures. She as the chaste virgin bride of Christ is made of of many lively stones that together form the spiritual unseen house of Christ, the church.

When a person compares a Catholic point of view to the same understanding of men it would be no different than any other sect or denomination .Their own private interpretation or understanding .Like fingerprints with some difference.

In that way the scriptures, God's living infallible word inspired from heaven informs us there must be heresies (sects, denominations) among us. And also it not wise to be of the number of those who venerate men that do compare themselves to their own selves and not compare their thinking to the word of God sola scriptura. (All things written in the law and prophets) .And therefore not of the oral traditions of venerable men as a law unto themselves.

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselvesvenerate) but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

 

[rturner76]

I was blessed to have kind priests and nuns who generously shared their faith and answered my questions growing up. They nurtured my hunger for God and I’m thankful for the experiences. I’ve always felt a great sense of calm and peace in certain settings. I spent many hours in the rectory and public living quarters and felt at home. That held true at the monastery too. I cried like a baby before I left. I found love in those walls and I'll never forget them.



The Rule wasn't the issue. It was a strict sect and that didn't bother me. But there are tenets within Catholicism I don't agree with. I'm not called to be a nun nor could I pledge myself as an oblate with those differences in mind.



There's alternatives and I found them. It's a commitment and I don't feel the Lord leading me in that direction.



I'm not called to the pastorate or mission field. I went through a missionary discernment program to be certain. I have a deep reverence for God that existed from childhood. But He needs me in the marketplace. That's where I belong.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

I think it was good that you went through that discernment process. I believe the process is meant not just to see if you are called to a Catholic vocation but it's to listen for your call and discern what God is calling you to do.

In that regard the discernment you went through was successful in that you discovered what the plan was (is) for you and secure in that knowledge, you went the way you were called to go. I'm sure you know this already, I just wanted to highlight that if one goes through the process faithfully, your path will be revealed, even if that is not with the Catholic church.

Your second discernment was the same. It warms my heart to hear about people following their call and finding fulfillment. That is such a blessing! Many go their whole lives from in one thing to another to another, never finding the place where they need to be. Many end up agnostic or even atheist when that happen

Like I say, it shows the discernment process is worth undertaking.

God Bless, and thank you for sharing your testimony.

 

[garee]

I did not choose Catholicism. It was chosen on my behalf during a period when I lacked the knowledge and spiritual maturity to do so. When I reached that place, I made the choice in accordance to God’s plans and purposes. I’m where I belong.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

Good testimony. Mankind can plant the gospel seed and water it with the doctrines of God but Christ must supply the living increase or power of the Holy Spirit. . . enabling us or giving us ears to believe Him not seen.

1 Corinthians 3:5-7 King James Version (KJV) Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.