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Featured Once a Catholic, Always a Catholic?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by ChicanaRose, Apr 1, 2019.

  1. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Personally, I see consistently in Scripture that salvation is by grace through faith and that baptism is an event that comes after that inward imparting of eternal life. I do not see in Scripture the teaching that baptism saves.

    If you have any Scriptures saying that a person becomes a Christian by water baptism, please post them for us.
  2. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

    Nonetheless, the Catholic Church has specific criteria for what membership requires... which is kinda sorta what this thread is supposed to be about.
  3. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Do you believe as the RCC teaches and the Pope has said that to go to heaven, one must be a member of the Catholic church?
  4. Mark_Sam

    Mark_Sam Newbie

    Hehe, legend has it that our bishop was still registered as a member of the Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Norway, when he was ordained to the episcopate. As this ecclesial community was the former state church of Norway (and Lutheranism the former state religion, until 2012), there were close ties between the membership list and the national census. So even if people cancelled their memberships, they would occasionally slip back into the system, due to sheer inertia. Lots of people have had to cancel their memberships multiple times. They did eventually fix the system though.

    I do believe the age-old maxim extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - "outside the Church there is no salvation". Today this is interpreted positively to mean that the Church is the means through which Christ saves. The fullness of this reality is found in the Catholic Church. But other Christians are still members of the Church of Christ, the Church which Christ founded, although in a less than perfect way, as they lack the fullness of revelation and the sacramental order.

    Many people actually criticize the Catholic Church today, as they claim that the Church teaches that almost anyone can be saved no matter what. So it is interesting that you have gotten the contrary impression.
  5. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

    This is a fascinating point.

    I've seen the Church get lambasted by some Protestants on CF because (they think) she says only Catholics go to Heaven.

    Some other Protestants lambast her because (they think) she teaches that everybody goes to Heaven.

    The answer to what she actually teaches can be found in the Catechism but a lot of Protestants don't seem inclined to read that. Don't know why though.
  6. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

    United States
    No, it is not true. I was once a Roman Catholic, and since have repudiated and cast aside all the errors, heresies and blasphemies of the Roman Catholic system in faith and practice, and now follow Jesus Christ in His faith and practice as it is written in scripture, and by God's grace am a Seventh-day Adventist.

    The Canon Law of the church of Rome, has specific regulations dealing with those who leave them:

    "...Pertinacious adhesion to a doctrine contradictory to a point of faith clearly defined by the Church is heresy pure and simple, heresy in the first degree. …" [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Heresy] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_VIII

    [CCC] " … 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11 ..." [Roman Catholic Catechism; PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION TWO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; CHAPTER ONE YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; Article 1 THE FIRST COMMANDMENT; I. "You Shall Worship the Lord Your God and Him Only Shall You Serve"; Ending Notation 11, refers to Canon 751 of Roman Catholic Canon Law] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7C.HTM

    "Summa Theologica: Article 3. Whether heretics ought to be tolerated? ..."

    "… I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. ..."

    "...On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. ..."

    "...Yet if heretics be altogether uprooted by death, this is not contrary to Our Lord's command ..."

    "...For this reason the Church not only admits to Penance those who return from heresy for the first time, but also safeguards their lives, and sometimes by dispensation, restores them to the ecclesiastical dignities which they may have had before, should their conversion appear to be sincere: we read of this as having frequently been done for the good of peace. But when they fall again, after having been received, this seems to prove them to be inconstant in faith, wherefore when they return again, they are admitted to Penance, but are not delivered from the pain of death. ..."

    "...Reply to Objection 1. In God's tribunal, those who return are always received, because God is a searcher of hearts, and knows those who return in sincerity. But the Church cannot imitate God in this, for she presumes that those who relapse after being once received, are not sincere in their return; hence she does not debar them from the way of salvation, but neither does she protect them from the sentence of death. …" [Summa Theologica The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
    Second and Revised Edition, 1920
    Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province
    Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight
    Nihil Obstat. F. Innocentius Apap, O.P., S.T.M., Censor. Theol.
    Imprimatur. Edus. Canonicus Surmont, Vicarius Generalis. Westmonasterii.
    Nihil Obstat.
    F. Raphael Moss, O.P., S.T.L. and F. Leo Moore, O.P., S.T.L.
    Imprimatur. F. Beda Jarrett, O.P., S.T.L., A.M., Prior Provincialis Angliæ
    MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ] - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm

    Thomas Aquinas theological points are still official Canon Law to this day, under the phrase "just penalty".

    " … Can. 1371 The following are to be punished with a just penalty:

    1/ in addition to the case mentioned in ⇒ can. 1364, §1, a person who teaches a doctrine condemned by the Roman Pontiff or an ecumenical council or who obstinately rejects the doctrine mentioned in ⇒ can. 750, §2 or in ⇒ can. 752 and who does not retract after having been admonished by the Apostolic See or an ordinary;

    2/ a person who otherwise does not obey a legitimate precept or prohibition of the Apostolic See, an ordinary, or a superior and who persists in disobedience after a warning. …" [Roman Catholic Canon Law; BOOK VI. SANCTIONS IN THE CHURCH LIBER VI. DE SANCTIONIBUS IN ECCLESIA; PART II. PENALTIES FOR INDIVIDUAL DELICTS; TITLE II DELICTS AGAINST ECCLESIASTICAL AUTHORITIES AND THE FREEDOM OF THE CHURCH (Cann. 1370 - 1377)] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P53.HTM

    " … Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

    §2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firmly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church. …" [Roman Catholic Canon Law; BOOK III. THE TEACHING FUNCTION OF THE CHURCH LIBER III. DE ECCLESIAE MUNERE DOCENDI] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM

    [see also: "Ad Tuendam Fidem", for further clarification on Can. 750.; "… The new text of Canon 750 reads in pertinent part: “Each and every thing definitively proposed by the magisterium of the Church regarding faith and morals … must also be firmly accepted and held; one who denies [such] propositions…opposes the doctrine of the Catholic Church.” Gone now, of course, is any argument that only matters recognized as “divinely revealed” can be the subject of the Church’s coercive power. At the same time Canon 750 was modified, Canon 1371 was amended to state that anyone who violates Canon 750, as amended obviously, can now be punished by a “just penalty”. Once more, the concerns of Canon 18 that ecclesiastical penal law not be read more expansively than the text of the law will reasonably admit have been satisfied, for Canon 1371 now makes express use of Canon 750. …" - http://www.canonlaw.info/a_adtuendam.htm or "… in the end, penalties (especially flexible sanctions such as Canon 1369's "just penalty") were placed in the Code by the Legislator to help bishops defend important ecclesiastical values …" - http://www.canonlaw.info/blogarch09.htm] or "… In using the phrase “a just penalty”, the Legislator made available the entire range of ecclesiastical sanctions, whether censures (namely, excommunication, interdict, or [clerical] suspension) or expiatory penalties, including deprivation of office (1983 CIC 1336) ..." - http://www.canonlaw.info/a_adtuendam.htm]
    " … Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him. …" [Roman Catholic Canon Law; BOOK III. THE TEACHING FUNCTION OF THE CHURCH LIBER III. DE ECCLESIAE MUNERE DOCENDI] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM

    " … Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3. " [Roman Catholic Canon Law; BOOK VI. SANCTIONS IN THE CHURCH LIBER VI. DE SANCTIONIBUS IN ECCLESIA; PART II. PENALTIES FOR INDIVIDUAL DELICTS; TITLE I. DELICTS AGAINST RELIGION AND THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH (Cann. 1364 - 1369)] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
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