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On the Four Horns As Carpenters of Zechariah 1: 18-21

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by texian, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. texian

    texian Guest

    On the Four Horns As Carpenters of Zechariah 1: 18-21

    "Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.
    19. And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And
    he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah,
    Israel, and Jerusalem.
    20.And the LORD shewed me four carpenters.
    21.Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These are
    the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his
    head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the
    Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter
    it." Zechariah 1: 18-21

    A horn is usually a nation, government or a people. These four
    "carpenters" are the governments that have scattered the people of
    God, here called Judah, Israel and Jerusalem, or those claiming to be
    his people who are being scattered by these four horns as judgment.

    But which timeline is involved here, and which governments are the
    four carpenters?

    Lets look at the Hebrew word translated as carpenters. Carpenters in
    Zechariah 1: 20 is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Number 2796,
    charash, from 2790, a fabricator of any material, artificer,
    craftsmen, maker, mason, workman."

    But, again, these four "carpenters" are governments, and calling them
    charash is metaphoric in some way.

    Lets look at the Commentary of John Gill to get some idea of what the
    traditional Christian Church's view of these four horns might have
    been. In his commentary on Zechariah 1: 18, John Gill says "...Targum
    interprets them of 'four kingdoms'; and which Kimchi and Abarbinel
    understand of the four monarchies, Babylonian, Persian, Grecian, and

    Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome are the four kingdoms in King
    Nebuchadnezzar's dream of Daniel 2 which Daniel interpreted to be the
    Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman empires (see Daniel 2: 32-45).

    Traditional church doctrine tends to say that the four governments or
    empires of Daniel 7 are exactly the same as the four in Daniel 2.
    Daniel 7: 1-8 says "In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon
    Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote
    the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
    2. Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold,
    the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
    3. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
    4. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till
    the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth,
    and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to
    5. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised
    up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it
    between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour
    much flesh.
    6. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had
    upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four
    heads; and dominion was given to it.
    7. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast,
    dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron
    teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with
    the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were
    before it; and it had ten horns.
    8. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them
    another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns
    plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the
    eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

    The four governments of Daniel 7 are a quartet like the four in Daniel
    2. But there is no reason in the text to see them as being the same
    empires. If they are another set of four governments in a later time
    line, they might have some similarity to the empires of Daniel 2, but
    would not be the identical empires.

    Remember that there were two major empires in the Mid-East before the
    Babylonian empire. These were the Egyptian and Assyrian empires, both
    of which interacted with the people of God. Likewise, we can find in
    history a total of six major world empires after the Cross, to
    parallel the six empires before the Cross, all of which interact with
    the people of God, either physical Israel or Israel reborn in Christ
    of the New Covenant.

    In our own timeline, there have been four major world governments,
    which interestingly match up with the descriptions in Daniel 7 of the
    four beasts, the lion with eagle's wings which were plucked, the bear,
    which devours or destroys much flesh, the leopard, and the fourth
    beast, "...dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had
    great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the
    residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts."

    There were two governments after the Cross which were Catholic, the
    Holy Roman Empire and the Spanish Empire. The Spanish empire ran into the "Protestant winds" and Queen Elizabeth's Navy when it sent the Spanish Armada to defeat England, then rising as the Lion kingdom, the first
    of the modern quartet.

    The British Empire existed for a few centuries before the Russian Bear
    Soviet Union empire begin to rise in 1917. Then, in a dialectic
    collision Hitler's leopard empire rose up in the thirties to oppose
    the Russian Bear, and we got World War II. And World War II was
    important for the development of the fourth beast of Daniel 7 as a
    world power or superpower, which is diverse from the others, and
    dreadful and terrible.

    The three world empires which defeated Nazi Germany, the leopard
    kingdom, met in a historically important meeting in the persons of
    Joseph Stalin, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Winston Churchill in February
    1945 at Yalta. Yalta was the Crimean resort place. So we have the
    Bear increasing in its power in 1945, while the British lion is still
    a power but not increased. And the American power was increased to
    soon become the full fledged fourth diverse beast, or world
    superpower. In the period of about 1945 to 1948 important events in
    history were the founding of the United Nations, as part of the fourth
    beast, the creation of the American national security state by the
    National Security Act of 1947, the bringing into the U.S. of former
    Nazi intelligence operatives and scientists and finally, the creation
    of the the little horn (Daniel 7: 8) state of Israel in 1948.

    Revelation 6: 2-8 presents a metaphoric set of four horses and
    horsemen, the white horse whose rider has a crown and goes out to
    conquer, the red horse, whose rider takes peace for the earth, the
    black horse whose rider holds a set of balances, and finally that
    "pale" or chloros horse (green horse) whose rider is Death and Hell
    followed after him. "And power was given unto them over the fourth
    part of the earth, to kill with the sword, and with hunger,and with

    The quartet of Revelation 6: 2-8 makes sense as being metaphoric
    concepts of the same quartet of modern world governments as powers
    interpreted to be the British lion, the Russian bear, the Nazi German
    Third Reich, and America-United Nations as the fourth beast. Some
    justification for this interpretation can be found in Revelation 13: 2
    where the first beast is described as being like the leopard, bear and

    The four horses of Revelation 6: 2-8 are also color coded, as the
    white colonial power of the British empire, sort of civil and said to
    have a man's heart in Daniel 7: 4. The red horse is the Soviet
    Marxist system in the form of Bolshevism, but representing something
    broader, which could include Transformational Marxism. The black
    horse is fascism, in which big corporations and big banks rule through
    a totalitarian government under their control. The pale horse, among
    other things, represents the mixing of the white, red and black
    horses, and don't forget that Death rides the pale horse and Hell
    follows close behind him.

    The four horns as the four carpenters of Zechariah 1: 18-21 are these
    four horses of Revelation 6:2-8, which are world powers or governments
    having incorporated some of the traits of the British, Soviet Union
    and Nazi Germany empires of the recent past, especially of the
    twentieth century period of about 1933 to 1948. The four carpenters
    are represented by Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin - and Hitler - and
    are also represented by the last four American presidents who have
    traits of the white, red, black and pale horses of Revelation 6.

    In history, since the important period of 1945-1948 these four
    "horses" and riders have scattered God's people. During this period
    of time, the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3 and the leavening
    of Luke 13: 18-21 gained momentum. The Christian II Timothy
    Church, which is never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and
    resists the truth (II Timothy 3: 7-8) become more evident in this
    period. The remnant, mentioned in Revelation 11: 13 and in Revelation
    12: 17, having the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17) are
    literally scattered over the world. And as in Daniel 12: 7 the
    spiritual and earthy power of the holy people are scattered, and the
    power of the II Timothy church is diminished.

    God's people have been scattered in the sense that their spiritual power
    has been diminished since 1945-1948 because the worldly culture under
    these world empires of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13: 1-2, as well as
    from the four horses and riders of
    Revelation 6 have become more hostile to the true Gospel. The II
    Timothy church has incorporated some of this worldly culture into
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2013
  2. x141

    x141 ...

    Nice post ... you can see the four horns (which has many forms) in the form of rivers, where truth is crucified, or parts the one river out of Eden/pleasure into four, from a garden that is not enclosed. A truth happening in us, which all things without are a reflection of.

    It's part of the repetitive pattern.
  3. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    John Gill is way off here! His commentary has some excellent points, but there are places where he takes the "typology" too far.

    Here's the problem I see with that...

    You have to make the scripture say what it doesn't say in Zechariah 1, and then IMPOSE this on Revelation.

    Zechariah told you what the "four horns" are in Zehcariah 1:18, 19:
    18 Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, there were four horns.
    19 So I said to the angel who was speaking with me, “What are these?” And he answered me, “These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel and Jerusalem.”

    The four horns do represent the kings/nations that God used to judge Israel and Judah...they were Assyria, Babylon, MedoPersia, and God is about to use Greece in this prophecy. it flows with Daniel 11 where Alexander The Great defeats the Persian Empire and then after he dies the Grecian Empire is divided up into four...that's Daniel 11!!!

    As you read Zechariah and allow it to say what the symbols are this prophecy can be rightly rendered.

    The prophecy here is where God is going to regather Israel and rebuild the temple. At the time of this prophecy Darius is king, so it is future to Zechariah, but to us this is the past, and fulfilled.

    Zechariah 1 is historical fulfilled prophecy, and I believe it is error to impose it on Revelation and the horsemen there.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
  4. texian

    texian Guest

    Joshua the high priest and Zerubabel are said to be the two anointed ones in Zechariah 4: 14. Zechariah 4: 2 and 4: 3 answers the question "What seest thou? by saying a candlestick was seen, with two olive trees beside it. Revelation 11: 4 says the two witnesses are two olive trees, and two candlesticks standing before God. Then Zechariah 4: 9-10 talks about the plummet in the hand of Zerubabel, and mentions the eyes of the Lord which run to and fro through the whole earth. Amos 7: 8 says "And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more:"

    The plumbline represents judgment. The plumbline in the hand of Zerubabel represents judgment. Revelation 11: 1, about measuring the temple of God, is about judgment on those claiming to be the people of God.

    The eyes of the Lord running to and fro through the earth in Zechariah 4: 10 is explained more in II Chronicals 16:9: "For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth,
    to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect
    toward him."

    Because Zechariah 3 and 4 do not say that Joshua the priest and Zerubabel are the two witnesses does not mean they are not the two witnesses in a very metaphoric way. In the series of metaphors of Revelation 11: 1-6 there are not many clues about what this all means. The measuring of the temple and the two olive trees and the two candlesticks are clues which point to specific Old Testament scriptures. Revelation 11: 7-8 on the two witnesses being killed by the beast from the bottomless pit, and that their dead bodies will lie in Sodom and Egypt may not be entirely metaphoric. It may turn out to be literal, though Sodom and Egypt are metaphors.

    The two witness of Revelation 11 are not two literal men, even though Joshua and Zerababel represent the two witnesses in the language of metaphor. Without dealing with the language of metaphor in Revelation 11, the chapter will never be opened up, perhaps because it is not given for it to be opened up to those who claim all scripture must be literally interpreted.

    I Corinthians 10: 11 says
    "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

    Zechariah 1: 18-21 is about a metaphoric concept called four horns and four carpenters. They are said to have scattered physical Israel - in the Old Covenant timeline. But six major empires that interact with the people of God run twice, before the Cross and after the Cross. After the Cross, the quartet is not Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, but England, Russia, Nazi Germany and America-UN. Because Zechariah One was fulfilled in the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem and the Temple in the time at the end of the Babylonian captivity does not necessarily mean the prophecy cannot apply to the timeline after the cross. What scripture can be brought up to oppose Paul in I Corinthians 10: 11?

    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2013
  5. texian

    texian Guest

    Zechariah was not an Old Testament prophet who lived at a time before
    the period when a remnant of Jews in the Babylonian Captivity began
    to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the wall and the temple. His
    prophecy, for example, in Zechariah 1: 18-21 on the four horns as
    carpenters and in Zechariah 3 about Joshua the high priest as well as
    chapter 4 on Zerubbabel, are not predictions that these leaders will
    in the future rebuild the wall and the temple in Jerusalem. He lived
    and wrote during the period of the rebuilding, and encouraged it. But
    he saw spiritual implications for the future in the rebuilding. In
    addition, his prophecies deal with a broader vision of Israel and look
    to the future from his time. This is why some of the prophecy in
    Zechariah can be applied to the very end times.

    Link removed to meet the rules of this forum

    "His prophetical career began in the second year of Darius, king of
    Persia (B.C. 520), about sixteen years after the return of the first
    company from their Babylonian exile. He was contemporary with Haggai
    (Ezra 5:1).

    Link removed

    "He was a descendant, perhaps the grandson, of Iddo the priest (1:1) -
    one of the family leaders who returned from the Captivity in Babylon
    (Neh. 12:16)."

    "The exiles who returned to their home in 536 B.C., under the edict of
    Cyrus, were among the poorest Jewish captives. Some 50,000 returned to
    Jerusalem under the direction of Zerubbabel and Joshua. They rapidly
    rebuilt the altar and began the reconstruction of the Temple. However,
    they soon began to feel apathy, due to the opposition of their
    Samaritan neighbors, who obtained an order from the king of Persia to
    halt the labors. For about twelve years the construction had been
    blocked by discouragement and concern with other objectives. Zechariah
    and Haggai urged the people to return to the LORD and his purpose of
    restoring the ruined temple. Zechariah encouraged the people of GOD,
    announced the day when the Messiah would reign from a restored temple,
    in a restored city."

    "Historical Setting: (IBD) The setting at the beginning of the Book is
    the same as the setting of the Book of Haggai. The prophet Haggai
    spoke directly to the issue of the rebuilding of the Temple,
    encouraging those who returned from captivity in Babylon to finish the
    task. Zechariah spoke to that issue as well, according to the Book of
    Ezra (Ezra 5:1). But Zechariah wished to bring about a complete
    spiritual renewal through faith and hope in GOD."

    "Zechariah is also noted for his development of an
    apocalyptic-prophetic style - highly symbolized and visionary language
    concerning the events of the end-time. In this, his writing resembles
    the Books of Daniel and revelation. The visions of lampstands and
    olive trees, horsemen and chariots, measuring lines and horns place
    him and these other two books in a class by themselves."

    Link removed

    "Zechariah was a prophet from 520 BC to 518 BC in Jerusalem, about
    2500 years ago. During that era, many Jews were returning from the
    Babylonian Captivity to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple, which had
    been destroyed by the Babylonians.

    "Zechariah, the son of Iddo, was instrumental in inspiring his fellow
    Jews to rebuild the Temple (see Ezra 6:14)."

    "Zechariah began prophesying during the same year as the prophet
    Haggai, in about 520 BC. Zechariah's prophecies came from visions that
    showed God's power, God's judgment of sin, the importance of spiritual
    strength, and the promise of things to come, including the promise of
    the Messiah. "

    Link also removed

    "Zech. 1:1 indicates he was the son of Berechiah and the grandson of
    Iddo. Iddo was one of the priests who returned to Jerusalem in the
    group led by Zerubbabel (Neh. 12:4, 16; Ezra 5:1; 6:14). Zechariah was
    also one of the ones who returned under Zerubbabel, and he was already
    a priest at the time of the return (Neh. 12:16). It is also very
    likely he was just a young man (Hebrew: na'ar) at this time (Zech.
    2:4). He was likely born in Babylon, and perhaps had just become a
    priest at the time the exiles returned to Jerusalem. "

    "As was the case with Haggai, the primary concern of Zechariah was the
    establishing of spiritual priorities in the life of the returned

    "Zechariah is the longest and most obscure of all the twelve minor
    prophets" (Adam Clarke). "It is the most difficult of any of the OT
    books to interpret" (Homer Hailey). Zechariah "is the most Messianic,
    the most truly apocalyptic and eschatological, of all the writings of
    the OT" (Robinson)."
  6. x141

    x141 ...

    If you take away the dispensation, and the looking for something to come, you will find by Him, these truths happening in you, where his Son is being revealed.
  7. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    I don't get it!!! Zechariah is prophesying in the reign of Darius!!!

    *Judah and Israel are both in captivity.

    *The remnant remained in the land...that's read in Jeremiah who prophesied to "the remnant"...so rethink that one!!!

    It's not in accord with the scriptural record.
  8. texian

    texian Guest

    Ezra 5: 1: "Then the prophets, Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo, prophesied unto the Jews that were in Judah and Jerusalem in the name of the God of Israel, even unto them."

    Nehemiah 12: 1, 16: "Now these are the priests and the Levites that went up with Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua: Seraiah, Jeremiah, Ezra......Of Iddo, Zechariah; of Ginnethon, Meshullam;"

    Nehemiah 12: 40-41: "So stood the two companies of them that gave thanks in the house of God, and I, and the half of the rulers with me:
    41. And the priests; Eliakim, Maaseiah, Miniamin, Michaiah, Elioenai, Zechariah, and Hananiah, with trumpets;"

    In Nehemiah 12: 1 "went up" means going to literal Jerusalem. The house of God in Nehemiah 12: 41 is the temple at Jerusalem.

    Zechariah went with the group including Zerubbabel to Jerusalem from captivity in Babylon. Zechariah did not live and die prior to the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem and of the temple, which took some time. He lived also during the period of the rebuilding and encouraged it if not taking part in it.

    The dialectic is almost always an argument against scripture to protect a relationship with something. The relationship can be a man-made theology which conflicts with scripture in some way..
  9. x141

    x141 ...

    Without two opposing forces, nothing happens.

    Both portions of the dialectic lead to the same place, which is the purpose of it, to bring a consensus, if there is no consensus the process does not end. This is in relation to self, which is the purpose of God, filling all things with himself.
  10. InSpiritInTruth

    InSpiritInTruth Well-Known Member

    The Lords 4 horns speak.:)

    Revelation 9:13
    And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

    4 horns of His altar...

    Exodus 27:2;"And thou shalt make the horns of it upon the four corners thereof: his horns shall be of the same: and thou shalt overlay it with brass."

    The people would also suffer 4 sore judgments, and were scattered to the four corners; just as there are 4 directions from which the 4 winds do blow (like judgments)

    4 angels, 4 corners, 4 winds (like spirits)

    There are also 4 beasts in heaven, who speak and say "come and see" each in order showing the 4 horsemen (4 sore judgments).

    1st seal, 1st beast, 1st horseman
    2nd seal, 2nd beast, 2nd horseman
    3rd seal, 3rd beast, 3rd horseman
    4th seal, 4th beast, 4th horseman

    What is interesting to note is the 4th horseman carries all the sore judgments of the previous 3= 4 sore judgments as the Lord also foretold of in Ezekiel. ( sword, famine, noisome beast, and pestilance)

    What is also interesting to note is the 4th and final earthly beast would be made up of parts of all the previous 3 (lion, bear, leopard) combined= 4th and final earthly beast kingdom period.
  11. texian

    texian Guest

    "What is also interesting to note is the 4th and final earthly beast would be made up of parts of all the previous 3 (lion, bear, leopard) combined= 4th and final earthly beast kingdom period."

    The fourth beast of Revelation 6: 8, the pale or green horse whose rider is Death and Hell follows close, has many of the traits of the previous three horses and riders.

    These are the horns, or world empires, that Zechariah 1: 18-21 says have scattered Judah.

    Since some events run twice, once in the Old Covenant time and again during the New Covenant, and I Corinthians 10: 11 says these events are written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world are come, we can see that these four beasts are parallel kingdoms in the two timelines, but not the same ones. That is, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome scattered Judah in the Old Covenant time. In the New Covenant time it is the British, Soviet Union, Nazi German and American-UN empires that scatter Judah. Judah in out timeline is what the Christian community calls the church. The King James Version sometimes uses words that may be over the heads of some. Admonition in I Corinthians 10: 11 means advice or warning.

    But what is meant in Zechariah 1: 21 that the four horns have scattered Judah?

    In Strong's Exhaustive Concordance scattered is number 2219, zarah, 'to toss about,to diffuse, winnow, cast away, compass, disperse, fan..."

    Daniel 12: 7 says that when "he" has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Here scatter is from Strong's number 5310, "to dash to pieces, or scatter, be beaten in sunder,, break in pieces, broken, dash, cause to be discharged, dispersed..."

    In Zechariah 1: 21, as well as in Daniel 12: 7, scatter means to diminish. The four horn empires diminish Judah in the Old Covenant time and diminish what is now called the Christian Church in the new Covenant timeline.

    Daniel 12: 7 indicates the time when the power of the holy people is scattered or diminished is the time of the end.

    The metaphoric concept called Babylon (in prophecy) runs twice too. We see Babylon as a metaphor for apostate physical Israel in Jeremiah 50 and 51. Babylon is a metaphor for apostate physical Israel can also be seen in Isaiah 13: 19-22.

    In Jeremiah 51: 6 and 51: 9, the Lord says through Jeremiah that "Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence," and that "We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies."

    Then, in Revelation chapters 17 and 18 Babylon is used as a metaphor for apostate Christianity, where in Revelation 17: 1-5 false religion as the Christian church in false doctrines is called "Mystery Babylon the Great." Repeating Jeremiah 51: 6, Revelation 18: 4 says "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

    While Zechariah 1: 18-21 points to four horns, representing four major world powers in our timeline that are to scatter or diminish the Christian church, the use of Babylon as a metaphor for falling into false doctrines (the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3) affirms that this diminishing is to happen, and already has been under way for some time.

    In Heavily metaphoric language Revelation 9: 15-18 says that four angels who were bound in the Eupharates and a huge army in Revelation 9: 16, are to kill the third part of man (verses 15, and 18). Killing the third part of man is not literal in this heavily metaphoric text.

    Daniel 8:12 says "And an host was given him against the daily
    sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to
    the ground; and it practiced, and prospered."
    The truth is cast to the ground by a host. Host is Strong's
    Exhaustive Concordance number 6635. which is said to mean "...a mass
    of persons organized for war, an army, by implication a campaign,
    company, host, soldiers, warfare."

    This is not the only place in scripture where the metaphor of an army
    is used to describe a large number of false teachers who "cast down
    the truth to the ground."

    Joel 2: 1-11 metaphorically describes a "great and a strong," "as an
    army of horsemen, so shall they run." Joel 2: 7-10 says this "army
    of horsemen," sometimes called Joel's army, that "They shall run like
    mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall
    march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
    Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his
    path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
    9. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the
    wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the
    windows like a thief.
    10.The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the
    sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their

    Yet Joel 2: 20 says "But I will remove far off from you the northern
    army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his
    face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea,
    and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because
    he hath done great things."

    The "army" of false teachers is called the "northern army."
    In Joel 1: 6-7, "For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and
    without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the
    cheek teeth of a great lion.
    7.He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it
    clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white."
    The vine in John 15: 1-5 is Christ. "I am the vine, and ye are the
    branches: He that abideth in me and I in him, the same bringeth much
    fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15: 5

    The fig tree is in Luke 13: 6-9, "He spake also this parable; A
    certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and
    sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser
    of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on
    this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the

    And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also,
    till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
    And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."

    The language of metaphor about the army of false teachers invading the Christian church is supported by plain texts.

    "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." Matthew 24: 11

    "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." I John 4: 1

  12. x141

    x141 ...

    The three are always summed up in the one, whether pro or anti.
  13. InSpiritInTruth

    InSpiritInTruth Well-Known Member

    Kinda like an opposite reflection of good vs evil.

    Holy, holy, holy vs. woe, woe, woe.:cool:
  14. x141

    x141 ...

    Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

    Holy, holy, holy vs. woe, woe, woe.

    Or two doctrines, or two different sets of breasts ...
  15. texian

    texian Guest

    "In history, since the important period of 1945-1948 these four
    "horses" and riders (Revelation 6: 2-8) have scattered God's people.
    During this period
    of time, the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3 and the leavening
    of Luke 13: 18-21 gained momentum. The Christian II Timothy
    Church, which is never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and
    resists the truth (II Timothy 3: 7-8) become more evident in this
    period. The remnant, mentioned in Revelation 11: 13 and in Revelation
    12: 17, having the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17) are
    literally scattered over the world. And as in Daniel 12: 7 the
    spiritual and earthy power of the holy people are scattered, which
    means the spiritual
    power of the II Timothy church is diminished. The salt has lost its savour, as
    Matthew 5: 13 says, and the Greek word translated as savour is
    moraino. Strong's
    says moraino, number 3471, is from moros, number 3474, which means "dull or
    stupid,.i.e, heedless, absurd, foolish."

    Those in the II Timothy church do not
    come to the knowledge of the truth, and so they are spiritually dumbed
    down. This does
    not mean everyone who goes to the II Timothy church is lost, because
    those in church still alive are the flesh and still breathing.

    God's people have been scattered in the sense that their spiritual power
    has been diminished since 1945-1948 because the worldly culture under
    these world empires of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13: 1-2, as well as
    from the four horses and riders of
    Revelation 6 have become more hostile to the true Gospel.

    However, this speeding up of the falling away from the truth of II
    Thessalonians 2
    2: 3-4 in 1945-48, began earlier in the 19th century. As a result of
    the influence of humanism - especially that of Hegel (1770-1831) and
    Marx (1818-1883) - on Christians and the cultural change as a paradigm
    shift in thinking away from a paradigm in which the Word of God is
    seen to be absolute truth, many Christians lost their love of the
    truth (II Thessalonians 2: 10-12) and zeal to protect the faith and
    Gospel of Christ. So, the false teachers of the 19th century and the
    cults began to gain more and more Christian followers.

    Mary Baker Eddy (1821-1910), Ellen G. White (1827-1915), Edward Irving
    (1792 –1834), John Darby (1800 -1882), Charles T. Russell (1852-1916),
    and and C.I. Scofield (1843 -1921) were some of the major false
    teachers of the 19th century who influenced Christians. John Darby
    and C.I. Scofield became the most popular of these 19th and early 20th
    century figures.

    A number of scriptures teach that there would be a departure from the
    truth of the New Testament. II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is not the only
    one of these texts. And Matthew 24: 11 and I John 4: 1 are plain
    scriptures which say that many false prophets will arise. So, it was
    not only the four horns of Zechariah 1: 18-21, or the four horses and
    riders of Revelation 6: 2-8 and the first beast of Revelation 13: 2,
    the leopard, the bear and the lion kingdoms merged, which caused
    Israel reborn in Christ to fall into apostasy. It was also the army
    of false teachers which took over the organized Christian community.
    These false teachers got their start in the 19th century, but gained
    much momentum at the time of the end of World War II, the start of the
    national security state (1947) and the creation of the Little Horn
    nation in the Middle East.

    But there is also a confusion of the identity of the Christian
    community in this falling away from the truth, which goes back to the
    Roman Catholic capital C Church.

    When Jesus Christ fulfilled II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16 and
    Jeremiah 18: 1-6 and turned Jerusalem upside down, he came to give new
    spiritual life to Israel. “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of
    the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24).

    Christ transformed Israel into a Spiritual house. "Ye also, as lively
    stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer
    up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ... But ye
    are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a
    peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath
    called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" I Peter 2: 5,

    In this transformation Christians become the chosen people. Galatians
    3: 3-29 explains that those who are in Christ, of any race or ethnic
    group, are the spiritual seed of Abraham. Entry into the kingdom of
    God was by faith and no longer by race.

    Paul says in Romans 9: 6-8, "Not as though the word of God hath taken
    none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
    but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the
    children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the
    children of the promise are counted for the seed."

    Those of physical Israel had to become born again in Christ as he said
    to the Pharisee Nicodemus in John 3: 1-7. The certain implication of
    John 3: 1-7 is that everyone must be born again by the Spirit to be
    saved, to be a member of the elect, and the sure implication is that
    everyone who is elect is a member of Israel reborn in Jesus Christ.

    The certain implication of Ephesians 2: 11-19 is that Gentiles who were
    previously aliens and strangers to the commonwealth of Israel are
    brought into that commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Christ
    (Ephesians 2: 13). The ekklesia, translated as church, is only a
    meeting, assembly or congregation of Israel reborn in Christ.

    But the falling away from the truth runs twice, first in the Old
    Covenant time, and again in the time of the new Covenant. In both
    timelines the falling away results in the people claiming to be of God
    being brought into captivity.

    Jeremiah 23: 20-22 says "The anger of the LORD shall not return, until
    he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his
    heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
    21.I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to
    them, yet they prophesied.
    22.But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to
    hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way,
    and from the evil of their doings."

    "Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD,
    and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by
    their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore
    they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD." Jeremiah
    23: 32 Lightness is Strong's number 6350, which is said to mean
    "frivolity, lightness."

    The false teachers are not solid in their knowledge, they do not teach
    truth. but teach frivolous things. "And they shall turn away their
    ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." II Timothy 4:

    In the Old Covenant time, the consequence of coming under the
    influence of false teachers, and into apostasy, is stated in Jeremiah
    25: 4, 7-11, "And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the
    prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened,
    nor inclined your ear to hear."

    "Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the LORD; that ye might
    provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.
    8. Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words,
    9. Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith
    the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will
    bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and
    against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them,
    and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual
    10. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice
    of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride,
    the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.
    11. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment;
    and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
    12. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished,
    that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the
    LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make
    it perpetual desolations."

    As judgment for falling into false doctrines and practices, physical
    Israel was sent into the Babylonian Captivity for seventy years.

    Then, Babylon in Jeremiah 50 and 51 is a metaphoric concept
    describing physical Israel in apostasy. yet many verses in Jeremiah
    50 and 51 can be applied to the New Covenant church in apostasy. This
    is because the apostasy runs twice.

    "My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to
    go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone
    from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace."
    Jeremiah 50: 6

    "We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and
    let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth
    unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies." Jeremiah 51: 9

    Babylon is physical Israel in false doctrines and false practices.

    "Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be
    not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's
    vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence." Jeremiah 51: 6

    "My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man
    his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD." Jeremiah 51: 45

    Jeremiah 51: 6 and 51: 45 are repeated in Revelation 18: 4, where the
    people of God are warned to depart from the church in apostasy in the
    New Covenant timeline, "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying,
    Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and
    that ye receive not of her plagues."

    "Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the
    earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the
    nations are mad." Jeremiah 51: 7

    Again, Babylon here is a metaphoric concept and not the historic city
    and nation called Babylon; it is physical Israel in apostasy which is
    the maddening wine of Babylon.

    And again, we find the wine of Babylon making the nations mad in the
    New Covenant timeline.

    "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her
    fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication
    with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the
    abundance of her delicacies." Revelation 18: 3 But in Revelation 18
    the metaphoric concept called Babylon is not limited to the Christian
    church in apostasy. It includes the corrupt worldly culture
    surrounding the apostate church. Merchants, from the Greek word
    emporos, or world traders, are mentioned several times in Revelation
    18. Revelation 18: 23 is a very interesting verse, which says "And
    the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the
    voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all
    in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy
    sorceries were all nations deceived."

    The voice of the bridegroom, which is Christ, is not heard in Babylon,
    the apostate church. But then it shifts to talking about the
    merchants of Babylon, and ends by saying that by the sorceries of
    Babylon were all peoples deceived. Sorceries is from the Greek word
    pharmakeia, which is interesting because it brings drugs, including
    prescription drugs and medical practices into this metaphoric concept
    called Babylon.
  16. texian

    texian Guest

    So Babylon, as a metaphor for those who claim to be the people of God
    following false teachers into apostasy, runs twice.

    And there is much more in scripture about this apostasy in the New
    Covenant timeline. Jesus Christ mentions the abomination of
    desolation mentioned by Daniel in Matthew 24: 15 as an indicator of
    the time of the fullness of this apostasy, when the transgressors have
    come to the full of Daniel 8: 23.

    In Daniel 8: 23 the "transgressors" who are said to come to the full,
    or the height of their influence, is from the Hebrew word pasha, 6586
    in Strong's, which is said to mean "to break away, from just
    authority, i.e, trespass, apostatize, quarrel, offend, rebel, revolt,
    transgress." In the shift of the paradigm of thinking from the
    absolute authority of God, and from absolute truth and absolute
    morality to a shifting paradigm of the dialectic of Hegel and Marx
    (and Freud) there is in the Christian church as influenced by the
    surrounding worldly culture, a break away from just authority, a
    rebellion, and many quarrels in which the dialectic process is used
    to argue against the absolute authority of God in scripture.

    So the arrival of the abomination which makes desolate is an indicator
    of the period of time during which the transgressors as followers of
    the paradigm shift away from the just authority of God in scripture
    are coming to their full power as the false teachers.

    "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the
    sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and
    they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate." Daniel 11: 31

    "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and
    the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand
    two hundred and ninety days."

    "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of
    by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let
    him understand:)" Matthew 24: 15

    The abomination of desolation has something to do with the apostasy of
    the church in the New Covenant timeline, at the end of the age.
    Remember that Matthew 23: 38 says "Behold, your house is left unto you
    desolate." This is talking about the house of physical Israel being
    left desolate by their apostasy. The abomination of desolation in the
    New Covenant timeline would have something to do with the Christian
    church being made desolate, or spiritually diminished, by something.

    Look at II Thessalonians 2: 3-4, "Let no man deceive you by any means:
    for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or
    that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
    shewing himself that he is God."

    The man of sin is a metaphor. It could be Satan, and in fact Satan is
    behind this entity called the man of sin and the son of perdition.
    But it has a human manifestation,
    though it is not one man as a super anti-Christ political leader. It
    is either the spirit of anti-Christ (I John 4: 3) or the false prophet
    (Revelation 19: 20, Revelation 20: 10), who represents many false
    prophets (Matthew 24: 11).

    The man of sin, or in Greek o anthropos tes amartias, is assumed to be
    "the man of sin" as one person. But anthropos tes amartias could mean
    sinful man or sinful humanity. It could be a metaphor-like
    construction meaning sinful man, or man in sin. But the question
    still remains is this the spirit of anti-Christ or the false prophet?
    Or both?

    Whichever Paul meant, the spirit of anti-Christ or the false prophet,
    the man of sin is important for the beginning of the final falling
    away of the Christian church. Paul says clearly that that day, which
    is the Day of the Lord, will not come until the man of sin is

    Likewise Christ in Matthew 24: 15 says the end is near when we see the
    abomination of desolation stand in the holy place. And it standing in
    the holy place corresponds to Paul's saying in II Thessalonians 2; 3-4
    that this mysterious man of sin will sit in the temple of God, showing
    that he is God. But the temple of God in the New Covenant is no
    longer a literal building in Jerusalem, as Stephen said in Acts 7: 48
    "the most High dwelleth not in temples made with human hands." And
    Paul says in I Corinthians 3: 16-17 that believers are the temple of
    God, and "...the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

    The metaphor called the man of sin is to sit or occupy the minds and
    hearts of those claiming to be Christians in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4.
    This occupation of the minds and hearts
    of those who were believers by the metaphor called the man of sin, who
    represents the transgressors as false teachers of Daniel 8: 23, would
    make them spiritually desolate.

    A clue is in Revelation 13: 12, where the second beast, which is the
    false prophet, representing many false prophets,is said to cause
    people to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
    Revelation 13: 3 says "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded
    to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered
    after the beast." This is the Little Horn nation called Israel which
    shows up along with the lion, bear, leopard and diverse fourth beast
    empires in Daniel 7. The Little Horn is in Daniel 7: 8.

    Since the False Prophet causes Christians to worship the beast whose
    deadly wound was healed, this beast is Babylon in the Old Covenant
    timeline, and is the people who rejected Christ and were cut off
    because of that unbelief (Romans 11: 17, 20-21). These are the ones
    who reject the Gospel message that Christ came in the flesh (I John 4:
    3), among other peoples. The Little Horn is of the spirit of

    The spirit of anti-Christ being honored by the Christian church is
    what makes it desolate. This goes back to the period of 1945-1948,
    when the Little Horn was created as a nation. And - at this time in
    the New Covenant timeline, the church went into a re-run of the
    Babylonian captivity. This does not mean that absolutely every one
    who went to church from 1948 to now is in Babylonian captivity, or in
    the strong delusion of II Thessalonians 2: 11-12, but the church is in

    There is more to this story, such as this period being the time of the
    indignation of the Lord of Isaiah 26: 20 and the time of the famine
    for hearing the word of the Lord in Amos 8: 11.
  17. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    The problem here is the four horns are very different. If one doesn't allow scripture to make it''s case...you can go in the wrong direction.

    Zechariah speaks of "four horns"...they are NOT on the altar, and therefore the have a different meaning because they are not the four horns on the altar.

    As Daniel tell us the 4 horns were 4 kingdoms...he has given us the way to see who they are.

    When it comes to the 4 horns on the altar we must recognize what was done with each sacrifice to understand what they meant. The priest were to take blood from each sacrifice and place it on the horns of the altar. Therefore the "horns of the altar spoke of salvation...nothing more.

    As we read of those who were in life threatening situations (like Joab for instance) they would go and take hold of the "horns of the altar"...in doing so they were pleading to God to save their life.

    As we read the Psalms we read how God is the "horn of our salvation"...this is the meaning of the horns of the altar...salvation!

    When it comes to "horns" we have to be careful, because "horns" have different meanings.
  18. InSpiritInTruth

    InSpiritInTruth Well-Known Member

    Yes, but those earthly things pertaining to the tabernacle and all the instruments of ministration were to be symbolic of the heavenly.

    Hebrews 8:5
    Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

    But the earthly evil beasts are the opposite reflection of the heavenly holy beasts.

    So don't confuse the heavenly horns with the earthly horns.:thumbsup:
  19. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    I didn't. That's the point I made. I'm simply pointing out there is a difference is the "horns" of Daniel and Zechariah. They are not to be associated with "the horns of the altar"...two very different things.

    As for the "horns of the altar".... Hebrews says the items of the tabernacle were copies of the heavenly things, and that's why they were cleansed with blood. That would be Hebrews 9:23:
    23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

    That would be the correlation. It doesn't mean your ignore the symbol because the symbol points to the reality.

    Therefore when you consider the "horns of the altar in heaven" in Rev 9:13 they have no correlation to the four horns of Daniel or Zechariah.
  20. InSpiritInTruth

    InSpiritInTruth Well-Known Member

    Sorry, I must have missed the part where I said the horns were the same?:confused: