On the Atonement.

Clare73 · May 5, 2022

bling said:
That makes God out to be the undeserving, criminal kidnapper of His own children!

Maybe in your fallen human mind, but not in the mind of God. . .his ways bein' above your ways 'n all (Isaiah 55:8-9).

bling · May 6, 2022

Clare73 said:
Maybe in your fallen human mind, but not in the mind of God. . .his ways bein' above your ways 'n all (Isaiah 55:8-9).

I do not see your personal attack on me being helpful: “…in your fallen human mind”, I think we can do better.

I do not have a problem seeing “God’s Logic” in all the important points, with atonement being a very important point. The easy way out is to throw up our hands and say: “Only God knows”, especially when the Biblical explanation goes against our doctrines.

Clare73 · May 6, 2022

bling said:
I do not see your personal attack on me being helpful: “…in your fallen human mind”, I think we can do better.

It's not specific to you, that is a comment referring to Scripture's "attack" on all humans.

I do not have a problem seeing “God’s Logic” in all the important points, with atonement being a very important point. The easy way out is to throw up our hands and say:
“Only God knows”, especially when the Biblical explanation goes against our doctrines.

Not an explanation I am much given to, but certainly a better one than the vain imaginings of contra-Biblical assertions.

apollosdtr · May 6, 2022

Michael Stamper said:
Hello,
Is there truly a moral defence for the Atonement?
In the garden of Gethsemane, prior to his arrest, Jesus fervently and passionately prayed to be spared by God. What awaited him was the excruciating horrific torture of crucifixion, followed by a descent into hell.
Christians say "God so loved the world that he gave his only son".
I have heard and read the apparent morality of this act. But can anyone here convince me that this act of God as described in Christian teaching is morally truly defensible?
I remain a Christian today, but among my objections to Christianity this is by far my most serious.
I hope for some considered replies!
Thank you.

The Atonement happens in the Fall.

Esaias Isaiah 66:3 But the transgressor that sacrifices a calf to Me is as he that kills a dog, and he that offers fine flour as one that offers swine’s blood, he that gives frankincense for a memorial is as a blasphemer. Yet they have chosen their own ways, and their soul has delighted in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their mockeries and will recompense their sins upon them, because I called them and they did not hearken to Me, I spoke and they heard not: and they did evil before Me, and chose the things wherein I delighted not.LXX

But the Passover happens in the Spring.

Jesus is the Passover Lamb.

Matthew 26:26-28 New Covenant ratified
+ John 19:33-36 not broken
+ John 19:28-30 hyssop
=
Exodus 12:21-49 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the passover. And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel, and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door; but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning. ... 46 In one house shall it be eaten, and ye shall not carry of the flesh out from the house, and a bone of it ye shall not break.LXX

apollosdtr · May 6, 2022

Andrewn said:
The evil world powers, both religious and secular, gathered together to get rid of the one who was truly Good.

Jesus never calls the amorphous "world powers" His murderers.

Matthew 21:33-39 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. And when the time of the fruit drew near, He sent His servants to the husbandmen that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took His servants and beat one, and killed another and stoned another. Again, He sent other servants more than the first, and they did unto them likewise. But last of all He sent unto them His son, saying, They will reverence My Son. But when the husbandmen saw the Son, they said among themselves, This is the heir: come, let us kill Him, and let us seize on His inheritance. And they caught Him, and cast Him out of the vineyard, and slew Him. (Matthew 23:29-39)

You're right about Jesus dying to defeat death, though.
Without Jesus' Resurrection, there'd be people forgiven... but still in Hades.
(Pelasgian Legend says Hades holds all of the souls, but in different places of Hades: some are in Tartarus... ...some are in the Elysian Fields.) But just because Death is defeated, doesn't mean it happened when Jesus rose. Death (thanatos) is riding the pale horse in Revelation. The prince of this world is also judged... but still walks around in both Heaven and Earth, waiting for that war in Heaven, when Michael will defeat him, and he'll be cast down to Earth, as the 3rd of three woes.

BobRyan · May 6, 2022

Clare73 said:
Justice for those who reject his Son, and mercy for those who receive, believe and trust him.

So in your view it is unmerciful justice to one group and unjust mercy to the other?? seriously?

BobRyan · May 6, 2022

Clare73 said:
It's not my job to sort our God's ways and decrees.

He can claim to be unjust to some and unmerciful to others. Or He can choose to be both just and merciful. It is His choice.

Rom 3 tells us what choice he took.

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished; 26 for the demonstration, that is, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Rom 9:
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,

Rom 2
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

BobRyan · May 6, 2022

Clare73 said:
Again, the debtee can accept whatever payment he chooses to satisfy the debt.

Accepting as "payment" - the "torture of himself" is not the debtee "getting paid" that is the "debtee getting tortured" and the one that tortures Him - incurs more debt to the debtee.

BobRyan · May 6, 2022

bling said:
The debt is sins against God, which are forgiven or not forgiven, God is not bloodthirsty need His innocent son to be tortured, humiliated and murdered to satisfy some sick “payment”.

God says "the wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23
God says the wicked pay the debt of the "second death" in Rev 20 - in the lake of fire.
God the Son - incarnate as Jesus Christ - took our debt upon Himself. (Substitutionary atonement)

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" 2 Cor 5.

Clare73 · May 7, 2022

BobRyan said:
So in your view it is unmerciful justice to one group and unjust mercy to the other?? seriously?

I give up. . .is that my view?

Please refresh my memory as to where I stated those words.

Get your exercise by jumping to conclusions?

If I were to use those words, they would be just justice and just mercy.
And they would be serious. . .as serious as a heart attack.

Clare73 · May 7, 2022

Clare73 said:
It's not my job to sort our God's ways and decrees.

BobRyan said:
He can claim to be unjust to some and unmerciful to others.

Can he?

Or He can choose to be both just and merciful. It is His choice.

Did he?

Rom 3 tells us what choice he took.
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished; 26 for the demonstration, that is, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,

Rom 2
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Seems pretty clear. . .

Clare73 · May 7, 2022

BobRyan said:
Accepting as "payment" - the "torture of himself" is not the debtee "getting paid" that is the "debtee getting tortured" and the one that tortures Him - incurs more debt to the debtee.

I'm not finding that statement anywhere in Scripture. . .

Is it one you've made up?

BobRyan · May 7, 2022

"the sky is up" can be followed by....

Clare73 said:
I'm not finding that statement anywhere in Scripture. . .

Is it one you've made up?

So when I say "10 + 3 is 13" or when I say

BobRyan said: ↑
Accepting as "payment" - the "torture of himself" is not the debtee "getting paid" that is the "debtee getting tortured" and the one that tortures Him - incurs more debt to the debtee.

We can also follow that by --

Clare73 said:
I'm not finding that statement anywhere in Scripture. . .

Is it one you've made up?

No doubt that could be the response to all such statements.

I would certainly agree ...

BobRyan · May 7, 2022

Clare73 said:
Justice for those who reject his Son, and mercy for those who receive, believe and trust him.

So in your view it is unmerciful justice to one group and unjust mercy to the other?? seriously?

Clare73 said:
I give up. . .is that my view?

Please refresh my memory as to where I stated those words.

as you say...

Clare73 · May 7, 2022

BobRyan said:
"the sky is up" can be followed by....
So when I say "10 + 3 is 13" or when I say
We can also follow that by --
No doubt that could be the response to all such statements.
I would certainly agree ...

So we're talking about the Biblical record in "the sky is up" and "10 + 3 = 13"?

And I'm still not finding "the torture of himself" anywhere in Scripture.
Keeping in mind the Father is not the Son, they are separate divine persons., with separate functions, the Son being subject to the Father and sent by the Father.
The Father doesn't send himself, he sends another person, his Son.

So would that be your translation of Acts 4:28--"They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

Is that what you mean by the contra-Biblical phrase, "the torture of himself (his Son)"?

Or where you thinking of Acts 2:23--"This man (God's son) was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge."

Again, "the torture of himself (his Son)," who is not himself but a separate person.

If that's what you are talking about, I am 100% in agreement that God did so.

Clare73 · May 7, 2022

BobRyan said:
So in your view it is unmerciful justice to one group and unjust mercy to the other?? seriously?

as you say...

Still waiting for you to show where I used those words.

Crickets. . .

bling · May 7, 2022

BobRyan said:
God says "the wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23

Do you believe: Jesus did experience the second death for us, because that is what is being taught. The death is contrasted to eternal life and Christ did not loss His eternal life.

BobRyan said:
God says the wicked pay the debt of the "second death" in Rev 20 - in the lake of fire.

God did not say: “the wicked pay the debt with the second death”, the wicked can never pay the debt, by doing anything.

BobRyan said:
God the Son - incarnate as Jesus Christ - took our debt upon Himself. (Substitutionary atonement)

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" 2 Cor 5.

We are ambassadors with the message of reconciliation, so what message provides reconciliation to the hearer and acceptor of that message?

A message saying “Christ took your place on the cross” does not reconcile people and leaves the impression it was done to help God to be able to be reconciled to us.

On the Atonement.

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