On Sterilization

[cathoaholicliz]

Okay so I know it is a mortal sin for me to get sterilized. I have not done that and I have not taken any birth control in over 7 years. I have not always been Catholic. I was raised by Catholic parents who did not practice their faith and did not have their children baptized.I am Catholic by baptism as of 2010. My dad said its because when he was a kid growing up he was beat with rulers for not going to confession until his knuckles bled and he has the scars to prove it. My mom said it was because her parents moved too much. My step mom is not Catholic but does not like the Church because she was told that her daughter would go to Hell for being born out of wedlock.

I was not raised by my step mom but I get an earful every time I post anything Catholic on Facebook. So I avoid Facebook at all costs.

Long story short my stepmom did raise my youngest brother from 12 until 19 (his current age) and she is telling me she'd like to get him chemically castrated. He has commited no crime except that he was born early and as a result of his prematurity he has a low IQ (above mentally handicapped (I didnt know the 'r' word was a curse considering we use "r" to describe mentally handicapped patients in clinicals but okayyy) but I think his IQ is in the 80s?) and he has high functioning autism. Since he struggles with everyday tasks she is worried he will get lured by a girl and get trapped into having sexual intercourse and have a kid.

I think her thinking is misguided at best and evil at worst.

What are your thoughts? What should I say to my dad if anything?

 

[Fantine]

It seems obvious that religion will not play a role in their decision.

And so everything stems on your stepbrother's mental competency. If he is competent then he can make that decision for himself. If he has been declared incompetent and your father and stepmother are his legal guardians, then they can make a decision they believe is in his best interests.

There have been legal battles posted in this forum in which guardianship is challenged over issues such as these--usually the challenges are from a facility where the child lives to parents who are serving as legal guardians.

I don't think that your parents could ever be financially responsible for any children he may unwittingly father, and if his income is limited or he is on SSI it is unlikely that he would be responsible for more than token child support.

 

[cathoaholicliz]

Its not my stepbrother. Its my brother brother. She only had 1 child. A daughter. Sorry I thought I should clear that up.

My brother's IQ is at minimum 80. But its not at the level to be considered "re" well its stupid to say handicapped because handicapped covers a lot of areas. "re" covers a specific group of people with a low IQ. Perhaps CF should reconsider the censorship.

Its a grave matter whether they accept it or not. They must somewhere know that having another person castrated chemically or not is a very serious and grave matter, regardless of their mental capability in life. And she said she could just lie to my brother. He's 19.

My question is on the morality of it. I know my stepmother has not had a chance to bring it up with my dad.

 

[Fantine]

If he is 19 and mentally competent, your parents won't have a say. Even if they beg a doctor to sterilize him, your brother will have to sign the consent form, and the doctor's office will make sure he understands everything.

When a child is 19, he is an adult, and doctors aren't even allowed to discuss his case with parents (without the child's permission).

 

[cathoaholicliz]

I don't know how to define competent. I am not a doctor but I know he can communicate, read, (he writes at a kindergaten level) he had to sign all of his paperwork at the bank by himself. He has to talk to social security himself or give permission for someone to talk to them. He has to go to the appointments and they make sure he understands what they are saying. I don't know his level of competency. His mental age is 12 or thereabouts. But his legal age is 19.

As far as I know he's never been considered incompetent. All I know is she was thinking of lying to him and telling him castration meant something else.

He wants children. But I think he ought to have them...
But then he's only 19. I don't know how much he will mature in 10 years.

They have not given him ANY tools to cope with his body. No sexual education at all. He doesn't even know the difference in a penis and a vagina and its something he CAN learn but they refuse to teach him. I know he can learn it. I mean he knows one is for girls and one is for boys but beyond that they have left him at a level of a 6 year old for the sex stuff. I raised him from the time he was 6 til he was 11. I have taught him a world of things except the sex stuff. I moved out when he was 12. He's not stupid. He's clumsy, he's ignorant, he's goofy, he talks out of turn, he can be inappropriate....but he has no understanding of his OWN body outside of how to wash it. He knows more about actual birds and bees than he does THE "birds and the bees"


I still want to kind of get an idea of whether it is moral or not for a person to have another person sterilized or to assist another in getting sterile

Not being a smart aleck really trying to figure it out.

Or does morality only really work for Catholics? Like are we the only ones who have to know that something is immoral and everyone else is kind of blissfully ignorant?

 

[Michie]

I don't know how to define competent. I am not a doctor but I know he can communicate, read, (he writes at a kindergaten level) he had to sign all of his paperwork at the bank by himself. He has to talk to social security himself or give permission for someone to talk to them. He has to go to the appointments and they make sure he understands what they are saying. I don't know his level of competency. His mental age is 12 or thereabouts. But his legal age is 19.

As far as I know he's never been considered incompetent. All I know is she was thinking of lying to him and telling him castration meant something else.

He wants children. But I think he ought to have them...
But then he's only 19. I don't know how much he will mature in 10 years.

They have not given him ANY tools to cope with his body. No sexual education at all. He doesn't even know the difference in a penis and a vagina and its something he CAN learn but they refuse to teach him. I know he can learn it. I mean he knows one is for girls and one is for boys but beyond that they have left him at a level of a 6 year old for the sex stuff. I raised him from the time he was 6 til he was 11. I have taught him a world of things except the sex stuff. I moved out when he was 12. He's not stupid. He's clumsy, he's ignorant, he's goofy, he talks out of turn, he can be inappropriate....but he has no understanding of his OWN body outside of how to wash it. He knows more about actual birds and bees than he does THE "birds and the bees"


I still want to kind of get an idea of whether it is moral or not for a person to have another person sterilized or to assist another in getting sterile

Not being a smart aleck really trying to figure it out.

Or does morality only really work for Catholics? Like are we the only ones who have to know that something is immoral and everyone else is kind of blissfully ignorant?

If I were you I'd ask a priest. I don't think the church condones sterilization...even for the mentally handicapped. But I'm sure there are exceptions depending on the situation.

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

Chemical castration? Are you sure that's what she said? That's not just sterilizing someone. That's effectively making it so that they can't even become sexually aroused/have sex at all. That seems a bit extreme. A man can have a vasectomy and still be able to have sexual relations.

 

[Fantine]

There are online resources that discuss this. Here's one from a pediatric journal:

Involuntary sterilization of... [Ment Retard Dev Disabil Res Rev. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[MikeK]

The Church answer is - No, a person may not sterilizes themselves or others, except as an unintended consequence of a necessary operation. An issue that comes up often is a woman is told that if she becomes pregnant again, she will die. Even that woman is not permitted to sterilize herself, she would be called to abstain until menopause. That's pretty heavy stuff, and certainly problematic in a marriage, but it is what it is I guess.

Beyond saying "No, he can't licitly be sterilized", there isn't really much area that the Church teachings would enter into his case. A Catholic volunteering to sterilize themselves could end up with a mortal sin on their conscience, but I doubt that the MD will be Catholic and it doesn't sound like your mom is. Your brother,reading at a kindergarten level and having autism, might not be culpable for such a sin if he elected to participate, Catholic or not.

Please let us know where this goes. There are a lot of families in my community that have been problematic from several angles for several generations. They're slow, they can live somewhat independently, but aren't savvy enough to compete in the world and are taken advantage of by others, and too often commit some pretty terrible criminal acts. I've often wondered if there was any sort of neo-Eugenia movement afoot to sterilize these types.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I don't know how to define competent. I am not a doctor but I know he can communicate, read, (he writes at a kindergaten level) he had to sign all of his paperwork at the bank by himself. He has to talk to social security himself or give permission for someone to talk to them. He has to go to the appointments and they make sure he understands what they are saying. I don't know his level of competency. His mental age is 12 or thereabouts. But his legal age is 19.

As far as I know he's never been considered incompetent. All I know is she was thinking of lying to him and telling him castration meant something else.

He wants children. But I think he ought to have them...
But then he's only 19. I don't know how much he will mature in 10 years.

They have not given him ANY tools to cope with his body. No sexual education at all. He doesn't even know the difference in a penis and a vagina and its something he CAN learn but they refuse to teach him. I know he can learn it. I mean he knows one is for girls and one is for boys but beyond that they have left him at a level of a 6 year old for the sex stuff. I raised him from the time he was 6 til he was 11. I have taught him a world of things except the sex stuff. I moved out when he was 12. He's not stupid. He's clumsy, he's ignorant, he's goofy, he talks out of turn, he can be inappropriate....but he has no understanding of his OWN body outside of how to wash it. He knows more about actual birds and bees than he does THE "birds and the bees"


I still want to kind of get an idea of whether it is moral or not for a person to have another person sterilized or to assist another in getting sterile

Not being a smart aleck really trying to figure it out.

Or does morality only really work for Catholics? Like are we the only ones who have to know that something is immoral and everyone else is kind of blissfully ignorant?

It is not moral. It is intrinsically evil. Morality is for all. Paul talks about how those who have never heard the gospel are without excuse:

Romans 1:18-20


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

​

If it is done against your brother's will, then he is not culpable.

Whether it's a mortal sin or not for those participating depends on more than one factor .. . it must be a grave sin, which it is. They must do it with their free will, and they must understand it's gravity. Only God can judge whether or not it is truly a mortal sin because only God can truly know to what degree their will is free or how well they understand it's gravity.

But it is a travesity for your brother if they do this.

The Catholic Church has been a notable
opponent of eugenics and sterilization programs.
The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith's
document​

​

​

​

Quaecumque Sterilizatio (AAS LXVIII
1976, 738-740, no. 1) states: “Sterilization is
defined as an action ‘whose sole, immediate effect is
to render the generative faculty incapable of
procreation’. And the same document continues: “It
(direct sterilization is absolutely forbidden ...
according to the teaching of the Church, even when
it is motivated by a subjectively right intention of
curing or preventing a physical or psychological illeffect
which is foreseen or feared as a result of​

pregnancy”.

Pope Pius XI, in his Encyclical​

​

​

​

Casti Connubii,
(Letter of On Chastity in Marriage...) states: Public
magistrates have no direct power over the bodies of
their subjects; therefore, where no crime has taken
place and where there is no cause present for grave
punishment, they can never directly harm, or tamper
with the integrity of the body, either for the reasons
of eugenics or for any other reason. St. Thomas
(Aquinas) teaches this when, inquiring whether
human judges for the sake of preventing future evils
can inflict punishment, he admits that the power
indeed exists as regards certain other forms of evil,
but justly and properly denies it as regards the
maiming of the body. ‘No one who is guiltless may
be punished by a human tribunal either by flogging​

to death, or by mutilation, or by beating.’”

Concerning sterilization of those members of
society who are deprived of the liberty for crimes or
mental illness, Fr. Hardon says, “Penal sterilization
is not a real punishment because it does not
effectively deprive the convicted person of anything
precious in his eyes. He retains his criminal sexual
tendencies and, if he is turned loose on the
community, he still remains a danger to society. If
he is kept in prison, there is no need for sterilization.
“For the same reasons penal sterilization is not a
real preventative to deter would-be criminals from
sexual crimes. They have nothing grave to fear if
they assault others sexually and are threatened with
the loss of reproductive fertility. In fact their
sterilized condition may even encourage them to
promiscuity”
(The Catholic Catechism, by Fr. John Hardon,​

Doubleday, 1981, p. 346).


http://pjpiisoe.org/pamphletsA4/395A4.pdf
​

 

[thereselittleflower]

You might find this of interset - help put things into perspective:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization

 

[cathoaholicliz]

The Church answer is - No, a person may not sterilizes themselves or others, except as an I intended consequence of a necessary operation. An issue that comes up often is a woman is told that if she becomes pregnant again, she will die. Even that woman is not permitted to sterilize herself, she would be called to abstain until menopause. That's pretty heavy stuff, and certainly problematic in a marriage, but it is what it is I guess.

Beyond saying "No, he can't licitly be sterilized", there isn't really much area that the Church teachings would enter into his case. A Catholic volunteering to sterilize themselves could end up with a mortal sin on their conscience, but I doubt that the MD will be Catholic and it doesn't sound like your mom is. Your brother,reading at a kindergarten level and having autism, might not be culpable for such a sin if he elected to participate, Catholic or not.

Please let us know where this goes. There are a lot of families in my community that have been problematic from several angles for several generations. They're slow, they can live somewhat independently, but aren't savvy enough to compete in the world and are taken advantage of by others, and too often commit some pretty terrible criminal acts. I've often wondered if there was any sort of neo-Eugenia movement afoot to sterilize these types.

He can read at a high school level.
He can WRITE at a kindergarten level. His writing is about equal to my son's as far as handwriting. He cannot spell some words but he knows them.

It is not moral. It is intrinsically evil. Morality is for all. Paul talks about how those who have never heard the gospel are without excuse:

Romans 1:18-20


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

​

If it is done against your brother's will, then he is not culpable.

Whether it's a mortal sin or not for those participating depends on more than one factor .. . it must be a grave sin, which it is. They must do it with their free will, and they must understand it's gravity. Only God can judge whether or not it is truly a mortal sin because only God can truly know to what degree their will is free or how well they understand it's gravity.

But it is a travesity for your brother if they do this.

The Catholic Church has been a notable
opponent of eugenics and sterilization programs.
The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith's
document​

Quaecumque Sterilizatio (AAS LXVIII
1976, 738-740, no. 1) states: “Sterilization is
defined as an action ‘whose sole, immediate effect is
to render the generative faculty incapable of
procreation’. And the same document continues: “It
(direct sterilization is absolutely forbidden ...
according to the teaching of the Church, even when
it is motivated by a subjectively right intention of
curing or preventing a physical or psychological illeffect
which is foreseen or feared as a result of​

pregnancy”.

Pope Pius XI, in his Encyclical​

Casti Connubii,
(Letter of On Chastity in Marriage...) states: Public
magistrates have no direct power over the bodies of
their subjects; therefore, where no crime has taken
place and where there is no cause present for grave
punishment, they can never directly harm, or tamper
with the integrity of the body, either for the reasons
of eugenics or for any other reason. St. Thomas
(Aquinas) teaches this when, inquiring whether
human judges for the sake of preventing future evils
can inflict punishment, he admits that the power
indeed exists as regards certain other forms of evil,
but justly and properly denies it as regards the
maiming of the body. ‘No one who is guiltless may
be punished by a human tribunal either by flogging​

to death, or by mutilation, or by beating.’”

Concerning sterilization of those members of
society who are deprived of the liberty for crimes or
mental illness, Fr. Hardon says, “Penal sterilization
is not a real punishment because it does not
effectively deprive the convicted person of anything
precious in his eyes. He retains his criminal sexual
tendencies and, if he is turned loose on the
community, he still remains a danger to society. If
he is kept in prison, there is no need for sterilization.
“For the same reasons penal sterilization is not a
real preventative to deter would-be criminals from
sexual crimes. They have nothing grave to fear if
they assault others sexually and are threatened with
the loss of reproductive fertility. In fact their
sterilized condition may even encourage them to
promiscuity”
(The Catholic Catechism, by Fr. John Hardon,​

Doubleday, 1981, p. 346).


http://pjpiisoe.org/pamphletsA4/395A4.pdf
​

Well my brother is not baptized (against his wishes. he wants baptism but they don't want him to become obsessive or a religious nut. he cannot drive and churches are not in walking distance. When I can drive I could take him but then that would be a whole world of worms I don't want to open.)

So therefore he is not Catholic. And my step mom is not Catholic. I don't even believe she is Baptized. So do the rules apply to non-Catholics?

It is definitely against my brother's will. He loves my children and day dreams about his own but he knows its improbable that he would ever have kids. However, he'd be devastated to tears if someone told him years into the future, like a doctor looking at his files, that he had accepted being castrated and signed off on it and therefore could not have children at all.

And to respond to one PP who said he would not be sexually aroused...
That's her point she doesn't want him to experience arousal because that could lead to masturbation. She doesn't want him to touch because she doesn't want to have him obsessed. She'd rather have him castrated then to talk to him like a human being about his human body. I would be a good person to tell him that masturbation is not appropriate and I could tell him that God does not approve of that. He loves God, the bible, prayers etc. So since he does have obsessive tendencies that would be enough he'd probably never do it just for that.

But I'd at least EXPLAIN to him what his body is for and is not for. I just can't cross those boundaries. I think its my dad's fault he never taught his own son about his body. My brother isn't stupid. He's just slower than others. He doesn't even know what his own body really does. How can he know what to do with it and how to avoid getting a woman pregnant by abstaining if he does not even know what abstinence is?

 

[thereselittleflower]

He can read at a high school level.
He can WRITE at a kindergarten level. His writing is about equal to my son's as far as handwriting. He cannot spell some words but he knows them.


Well my brother is not baptized (against his wishes. he wants baptism but they don't want him to become obsessive or a religious nut. he cannot drive and churches are not in walking distance. When I can drive I could take him but then that would be a whole world of worms I don't want to open.)

So therefore he is not Catholic. And my step mom is not Catholic. I don't even believe she is Baptized. So do the rules apply to non-Catholics?

God's moral law applies to all people. If it didn't, then that would mean that those who aren't Catholic could not sin. But that would be nonsensical. Jesus came because of sin, because men broke God's law. The Church just has no jurisdiction over those outside of her, but that does not mean those outside of her are guiltless.

Do you see?

If he wants to be baptized and is of age, then may I recommend you do all in your power to see that this all important sacrament becomes his. A priest can come out to the house and baptize him there. Sometimes we have to stand up against the tide for what is right, against all those who would try to intimidate us.

Talk to your priest about this situation. God has put it in your hands to be able to help.

 

[Lilly Owl]

For the sake of the child and the future, I think a mom is projecting the best interest of her son and the world.
It was God's will he be autistic. High functioning. Perhaps it's God's will that his mother think of sterilizing him too.

 

[thereselittleflower]

For the sake of the child and the future, I think a mom is projecting the best interest of her son and the world.
It was God's will he be autistic. High functioning. Perhaps it's God's will that his mother think of sterilizing him too.

Um no Lilly.

Such a position advocates against all the teaching of the Catholic Church. This is OBOB after all. While I understand you do not agree with Catholic teaching, I'm sure you realize this is not the place to advocate against it.

 

[cathoaholicliz]

He's 19, hardly a child at all, Lily. And he's able to think for himself. IF someone talked to him about his situation and his body he might not make a choice to have sexual intercourse at all. He may choose a life of celibacy. If he is able to make choices why can't he choose celibacy?

God does not go against his own Moral law if that's what TLF is saying is God's law then why would God convince a human to go against it?

In order to understand my brother's competency level you'd have to live with him for a week or two. Not just have me talk to you about what he can and cannot do. I know my brother to know well enough that he can speak and make choices and consider options. He can understand things that most autistic people cannot such as slang, idioms, and figurative language. He has a very mild form but he does have obsessive compulsive related issues and he does have the mind of a 12 year old. He can think like an adult at times too.

 

[thereselittleflower]

He's 19, hardly a child at all, Lily. And he's able to think for himself. IF someone talked to him about his situation and his body he might not make a choice to have sexual intercourse at all. He may choose a life of celibacy. If he is able to make choices why can't he choose celibacy?

God does not go against his own Moral law if that's what TLF is saying is God's law then why would God convince a human to go against it?

He wouldn't, but there are many with good intentions who do not understand God's moral laws. Human beings have a marvelous ability to rationalize their way around God's laws. . . but that's all it is, rationalization and when we stand before His throne, those rationalizations will vaporize leaving us empty handed.

 

[cathoaholicliz]

I hope God is real sometimes in situations like this. Sometimes my faith is kind of fading with these things.

I have once read that the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[Lilly Owl]

Um no Lilly.

Such a position advocates against all the teaching of the Catholic Church. This is OBOB after all. While I understand you do not agree with Catholic teaching, I'm sure you realize this is not the place to advocate against it.

It was not my intention to advocate against it. Rather, I was offering my opinion.
I should stay out of what I do not fully understand, I guess. No offense intended.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I hope God is real sometimes in situations like this. Sometimes my faith is kind of fading with these things.

I have once read that the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

Yes it is And God is real, even if you can't sense this or see this at times.

Faith that holds onto God even in the darkness of doubt is a dark faith of great merrit.