On his own, man is totally unable to believe in the gospel

timothyu

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Well then, it also includes daily living a self-sacrificial life, as Jesus said. Not trying to "get".... but giving as Jesus says.
Yes that is what I said :)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Agreed and the whole thing is summed up in putting God's will before our own and loving all as self.
Very few posters have shown that they think "loving all ...." is in any way self sacrificial. Almost all still look out for number one first, then others, if at all ....
 
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dad

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Yes but He still had to first fulfill what was required of Him, the will of the Father, not His own. Had He failed and did anything the Tempter asked Him to do, or ran from execution and the like, the Gospel of the Kingdom would be a moot point
He did fulfill God's will, and that was to bring Salvation for us as was planned since before the world began.
 
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dad

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Jesus said “if you love me, you’ll obey my commandments.” There’s the condition. He is the vine and we are the branches and those who do not bare fruit get cut off. We gotta take the the Bible and what is written into consideration, that means the whole thing ⭐:oldthumbsup:
No! That is a commandment and what we ought to do when saved! That is not a way to keep being saved...or to save us! His commandment is to believe on Him. Not all Christians love Him as much as they should, and maybe even as they will one day! Look at Peter.
 
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dad

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As written throughout the NT of the Ekklesia, when the people's hearts were one with Jesus, what did they do ?
They listened to HIS VOICE, and obeyed Him - they did not go on sinning willingly, but repented. They whole-heartedly chose to serve Yahuweh and worship Him Faithfully, instead of serving the devil or the flesh. They did what the Father in heaven said to do - so they were DOERS and not just HEARERS of the WORD. IF they claimed to have faith, but had not works, it was dead - like a body laying on the ground without breath is dead.
We are all like dead bodies lying there till we get saved. We do not get saved by works or get life. The idea is to love Him and have Him in our life. THEN, and only then can we start to keep some commandments and when we fail and break some...tough! Such is eternal life, we learn, we get corrected etc. We do not get cast into hell!
 
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dad

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Well then, it also includes daily living a self-sacrificial life, as Jesus said. Not trying to "get".... but giving as Jesus says.
Being more like Him (sacrificing etc) comes after we have Him in us. Sacrificing doesn't save anyone. Sacrificing is just something people growing in the love of God will do...at least start to do one day! One disciple fled naked in Gethsemane. Not so saintly and sacrificial. Thomas doubted. Some apostles and disciples argued. Jesus didn't save His followers BECAUSE they were sacrificial and saintly and good! Nor did that keep them saved. It takes time for a baby to grow and for new believers to learn to be more like Jesus. Some more than others...but all are saved who came to Jesus, even if some get greater rewards.
 
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Dave L

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We counter this by walking
A true Christian will hate sin, but because the sin nature still resides in us, the lure and enticement of sin is always present.

For instance,
gluttony is a sin, but how many fat Christians do we see who abuse their bodies with food over and above what they require to survive and be fit? Since the body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, then we should hate abusing it for our own selfish pleasure.

There are so many other temptations to sin like this that the Scriptures warn Christians about. That is why so many warnings are given in Scripture about temptation, falling away from the faith, and why we are instructed to remain in the Word, and to pray diligently that we fall not into temptation.

If Scripture itself warns and instructions Christians to hate sin and to love and cling to what is good, then hating sin and loving what is good is NOT a given condition of a born again Christian.

Romans 12:9 (NIV)
9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

The struggle continues. However, the Spirit gives our faith the victory if we continue to walk in the Spirit.
We counter this by walking in the Spirit.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)
 
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Dave L

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Not at all. This makes salvation available to those who, by faith, humble themselves and cry out to God to save them from their prison of sin and death.

Luke 18:9-14 (NIV)
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Flesh faith (the kind you buy used cars with) cannot save. You must be saved before you can truly believe.
 
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setst777

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Flesh faith (the kind you buy used cars with) cannot save. You must be saved before you can truly believe.

All the Scriptures teach and state that you must believe to be saved. John 3:16-18 is probably the most familiar.

If you disagree, show me a Scripture that contradicts all the rest of Scripture. In other words, show me a Scripture that states that we are saved so we can believe.

God Gracious Gift of Salvation – the regenerative work of God –

*is receive by Faith (Romans 5:1-3)
*is kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:4-5)
*The end result of your faith is your salvation (1 Peter 1:9)

The entire saving experience, including the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and His regenerating power, is only received and kept by faith, remaining faithful to the end – that is the God’s condition to receive the free gift of salvation:

By faith we are justified:
Romans 5:1
By faith God credits righteousness to our account as a gift:
Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24
By faith we access God's saving grace:
Romans 5:1-2
By faith we receive the power of God onto salvation:
Romans 1:16-17
By faith we are kept by God's Power until the end:
1 Peter 1:4-5
By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23
By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39;
By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26
By faith to the end we receive the Crown of Life:
Revelation 2:10
By Faith in Jesus we are sanctified:
Acts 26:16-18

"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:16-17

The Christian is “created in Christ” by the Spirit we receive by faith:

Ephesians 1 (NIV)
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.”
39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

The “good works” God prepared for us to do is only accomplished when, by faith, we obey that same Spirit we received by faith.

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let US not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF WE do not give up.

Galatians 5:16 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Therefore, regeneration is God’s work in those who, by faith, obey His Spirit that indwells the believer. This is regeneration – only by faith.

To do the good works that God created us for, we must, by faith, be in Christ, which is to be obedient to His Spirit who lives in us by faith to be saved. We saw the Scriptures. And that is why we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling (living by God’s Spirit in us). By so doing, God is working out His will in our lives.

Philippians 2 (WEB)
12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

Paul is not teaching a works salvation here; but rather, Paul is establishing that a Bible faith in Christ means we are dead to the old master of the sinful nature, and are now disciples of Christ, living by His Spirit. . . “19 Go, and make disciples of all nations teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19). We are dead to the old life and alive in Christ.

To be created in Christ is salvation, which is God’s regenerative work from sin and death – only in those who faithfully walk by God’s Spirit whom they receive by faith. As we saw by Scripture, God’s gift of saving grace is only accessed by faith - and faith that saves is not a work, nor is faith that saves a product of God's grace; rather we gain access to God's Grace by Faith. This begins the New Life in the Spirit. The end result of your faith is your salvation.

Blessings,
Steven
 
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Dave L

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All the Scriptures teach and state that you must believe to be saved. John 3:16-18 is probably the most familiar.

If you disagree, show me a Scripture that contradicts all the rest of Scripture. In other words, show me a Scripture that states that we are saved so we can believe.

God Gracious Gift of Salvation – the regenerative work of God –

*is receive by Faith (Romans 5:1-3)
*is kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:4-5)
*The end result of your faith is your salvation (1 Peter 1:9)

The entire saving experience, including the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and His regenerating power, is only received and kept by faith, remaining faithful to the end – that is the God’s condition to receive the free gift of salvation:

By faith we are justified:
Romans 5:1
By faith God credits righteousness to our account as a gift:
Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24
By faith we access God's saving grace:
Romans 5:1-2
By faith we receive the power of God onto salvation:
Romans 1:16-17
By faith we are kept by God's Power until the end:
1 Peter 1:4-5
By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23
By faith we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39;
By faith we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26
By faith to the end we receive the Crown of Life:
Revelation 2:10
By Faith in Jesus we are sanctified:
Acts 26:16-18

"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:16-17

The Christian is “created in Christ” by the Spirit we receive by faith:

Ephesians 1 (NIV)
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.”
39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

The “good works” God prepared for us to do is only accomplished when, by faith, we obey that same Spirit we received by faith.

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let US not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF WE do not give up.

Galatians 5:16 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Therefore, regeneration is God’s work in those who, by faith, obey His Spirit that indwells the believer. This is regeneration – only by faith.

To do the good works that God created us for, we must, by faith, be in Christ, which is to be obedient to His Spirit who lives in us by faith to be saved. We saw the Scriptures. And that is why we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling (living by God’s Spirit in us). By so doing, God is working out His will in our lives.

Philippians 2 (WEB)
12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

Paul is not teaching a works salvation here; but rather, Paul is establishing that a Bible faith in Christ means we are dead to the old master of the sinful nature, and are now disciples of Christ, living by His Spirit. . . “19 Go, and make disciples of all nations teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19). We are dead to the old life and alive in Christ.

To be created in Christ is salvation, which is God’s regenerative work from sin and death – only in those who faithfully walk by God’s Spirit whom they receive by faith. As we saw by Scripture, God’s gift of saving grace is only accessed by faith - and faith that saves is not a work, nor is faith that saves a product of God's grace; rather we gain access to God's Grace by Faith. This begins the New Life in the Spirit. The end result of your faith is your salvation.

Blessings,
Steven
The problem is you are forcing legalism into scripture that does not exist. Christians act like Christians because God made them Christians through the new birth.

You are suggesting people need to act like Christians to become one. This is hypocrisy
 
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setst777

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Flesh faith (the kind you buy used cars with) cannot save. You must be saved before you can truly believe.

Show any Scripture that states that saving faith is a fruit of the Spirit.
  • By faith unto salvation we bear Spiritual fruit.
  • Faith onto salvation is neither a fruit or a gift.
No Scripture states or teaches that faith onto salvation is a gift of God.

Some ‘scholars’ object, citing “1 Corinthians 12:9” and “Romans 12:3-8.” However, these Scriptures are discussing the gifts of the Spirit and the faith to carry out specific gifts - to those already saved.

Scripture repeatedly teaches that “Gift” refers to God’s saving grace – God graciously accrediting righteousness to those of faith. This “Gift” of grace is righteousness onto salvation, and is only receive by faith.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:4-5 (just quoted) teaches that we receive God’s Gift (being accredited righteousness) by Faith. See also: Romans 5:17. Faith itself is not the gift.

The “Gift of God” is God graciously imputing His righteousness to those who believe in Jesus.

Romans 3:22-24
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

We must come to Christ and drink first in order to be regenerated

Revelation 22:17

17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” He who hears, let him say, “Come!” He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let him take the water of life freely.

So does regeneration of the Spirit come so one can believe?
OR
Must one believe first to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit?

Regeneration of the indwelling Spirit only by faith...

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine… 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Let’s review another Scripture. . .

Romans 6 (WEB) Bolding mine… 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The “gift of God” refers to “eternal life.

We only receive God’s gracious gift of eternal life though faith in Christ Jesus according to every Scripture in the Bible, in context. Examples were given.
 
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Dave L

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Show any Scripture that states that saving faith is a fruit of the Spirit.
  • By faith unto salvation we bear Spiritual fruit.
  • Faith onto salvation is neither a fruit or a gift.
No Scripture states or teaches that faith onto salvation is a gift of God.

Some ‘scholars’ object, citing “1 Corinthians 12:9” and “Romans 12:3-8.” However, these Scriptures are discussing the gifts of the Spirit and the faith to carry out specific gifts - to those already saved.

Scripture repeatedly teaches that “Gift” refers to God’s saving grace – God graciously accrediting righteousness to those of faith. This “Gift” of grace is righteousness onto salvation, and is only receive by faith.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:4-5 (just quoted) teaches that we receive God’s Gift (being accredited righteousness) by Faith. See also: Romans 5:17. Faith itself is not the gift.

The “Gift of God” is God graciously imputing His righteousness to those who believe in Jesus.

Romans 3:22-24
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

We must come to Christ and drink first in order to be regenerated

Revelation 22:17

17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” He who hears, let him say, “Come!” He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let him take the water of life freely.

So does regeneration of the Spirit come so one can believe?
OR
Must one believe first to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit?

Regeneration of the indwelling Spirit only by faith...

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine… 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Let’s review another Scripture. . .

Romans 6 (WEB) Bolding mine… 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The “gift of God” refers to “eternal life.

We only receive God’s gracious gift of eternal life though faith in Christ Jesus according to every Scripture in the Bible, in context. Examples were given.


“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)
 
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setst777

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The problem is you are forcing legalism into scripture that does not exist. Christians act like Christians because God made them Christians through the new birth.

You are suggesting people need to act like Christians to become one. This is hypocrisy

You are accusing without responding to the Scriptures provided. You would rather hold onto false doctrine no matter what Scripture actually teaches in context.
 
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Dave L

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You are accusing without responding to the Scriptures provided. You would rather hold onto false doctrine no matter what Scripture actually teaches in context.
There are two ways to read scripture. Legalistically = the wrong way. And as traits of the saved = the right way.
 
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setst777

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“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)

This Passage was written as encouragement and instruction for those already saved - the Church. The fruit of the Spirit are given to those who already believe and are saved - not to unbelievers.

On of the fruits is faith, but not saving faith; rather, faith to carry out gifts of the Spirit.

If you disagree, then show me how people believed in Lord Jesus before the Spirit was ever given...

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine… 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.
 
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Dave L

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This Passage was written as encouragement and instruction for those already saved - the Church. The fruit of the Spirit are given to those who already believe and are saved - not to unbelievers.

On of the fruits is faith, but not saving faith; rather, faith to carry out gifts of the Spirit.

If you disagree, then show me how people believed in Lord Jesus before the Spirit was ever given...

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine… 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.


“Cast me not away from Your presence and take not Your Holy Spirit from me.” Psalm 51:11 (AMP)
 
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setst777

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There are two ways to read scripture. Legalistically = the wrong way. And as traits of the saved = the right way.

You didn't reply to the Scriptures given.

You choose to believe that one must be saved before they can believe - That is NOT what Scripture teaches.

You choose to believe that one receives the Spirit so they can believe - That is NOT what Scripture teaches.

By faith we receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23

By faith
we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we receive by faith: John 7:37-39;

By faith
we are born of God:
John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26
 
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“Cast me not away from Your presence and take not Your Holy Spirit from me.” Psalm 51:11 (AMP)

All kings of the OT were anointed by God's Spirit to rule over Israel, but the Spirit was not yet given to those who believed until Christ Jesus was glorified - As the Scriptures teach.

King David was repenting of his terrible sin.
 
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