On his own, man is totally unable to believe in the gospel

Dave L

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Well we know all Christians have the ability to sin as well as engage in sin. We also know that non believers have the ability to do righteous acts as well. This verse should be understood in context because 1 John 8 tells us a different perspective. IMO the verse you posted discusses sin that is habitually practiced without repentance.
Because of the New Birth we hate sin and love righteousness. Those who habitually sin are probably only fooling themselves about their salvation.
 
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BCsenior

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But, if they're "elect" already, you're unnecessary.
Great, you're arguing with Jesus, IMO.
How will the elect believe if they don't hear/read the gospel?

C'mon now, I'm gettin' ready to laugh or cry!
 
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dad

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Yes Satan does blind, with deception as well as continually temp the believer into falling into deception.
Good point, not only are unbelievers blinded, but even some believers can be deceived, as I feel is the case when science claims about where we came from are believed over God's claims.
 
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setst777

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This makes salvation available to the self-righteous only. And not to poor sinners who cannot believe. God saves poor sinners who cannot believe turning them into repentant believers while sending the self-righteous to hell.

Not at all. This makes salvation available to those who, by faith, humble themselves and cry out to God to save them from their prison of sin and death.

Luke 18:9-14 (NIV)
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
 
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rnmomof7

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I view the verses as simply stating how man hardens their heart towards God until they choose to repent and come into the Fold rather than how you presented it as man not having the ability to choose or believe in the Gospel. We have the ability to believe yet some choose not to believe. This is due to the hardness of the heart and not because God chooses some and not others (Calvanism).

Example:
You said:• spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 12:39-40, Ephesians 4:18
All three scriptural references are all about the "hardened heart"..."For the hearts of this people have grown dull.""Their ears are hard of hearing"."their eyes they have closed".


Jesus said they were not given the ability to hear and understand
 
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setst777

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Because of the New Birth we hate sin and love righteousness. Those who habitually sin are probably only fooling themselves about their salvation.

A true Christian will hate sin, but because the sin nature still resides in us, the lure and enticement of sin is always present.

For instance,
gluttony is a sin, but how many fat Christians do we see who abuse their bodies with food over and above what they require to survive and be fit? Since the body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, then we should hate abusing it for our own selfish pleasure.

There are so many other temptations to sin like this that the Scriptures warn Christians about. That is why so many warnings are given in Scripture about temptation, falling away from the faith, and why we are instructed to remain in the Word, and to pray diligently that we fall not into temptation.

If Scripture itself warns and instructions Christians to hate sin and to love and cling to what is good, then hating sin and loving what is good is NOT a given condition of a born again Christian.

Romans 12:9 (NIV)
9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

The struggle continues. However, the Spirit gives our faith the victory if we continue to walk in the Spirit.
 
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rnmomof7

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Interesting concept, good going!
I wonder if we can prove this conclusively one way or another via the NT?

And IMO, hardness usually comes via the free will of the rebellious.
But, yes, deception can cause the rebelliousness.
Actually, Hebrews explains that rebellion is like witchcraft.
And elsewhere it says rebellion proves unbelief.

Okay, I've thought about it a bit ...

Satan deceives non-believers and believers both!
He's the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world.
So, he doesn't need non-believers to have hardened their hearts
before he deceives them!

It's all a matter of who is spiritually blind, and who is not.
Paul says Satan blinds the minds of the unbeliever (2 Cor. 4:4).

IMO, the evidence and logic point in my direction, but have a go at it, if you wish.

Satan can do nothing without the permission of God.. God is the God of Satan
 
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rnmomof7

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I see it differently. Satan already has non believers due to the hardness of their heart. Satan does not create the hardness we do by falling into deception. There are equally as many verses that Satan tempts and deceives the believers. This is why we must put on the full armor of God so as not to fall away and have our conscience seared. Warnings are abundant in scripture. We choose to sear our own conscience, Satan is there to deceive us into being cauterized.
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

We are born with harden heart..THAT is why we need a new heart.. we are born fallen
 
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setst777

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I'm a Calvinist, so of course I agree.

If you really knew what Calvin taught, would you actually remain a Calvinist? I wonder.

All Calvinists and Wesleyan/Arminians believe God is actively involved in each person’s faith and transformation, but unlike Wesleyan/Arminianism, Calvinists believe God, from eternity past, not only graciously selects some persons to receive the faith to be saved, but guarantees that person’s faith and salvation to the end - God being actively responsible for each of the Elect's faith and salvation. Such a belief is rooted in how Calvinists define God's Sovereignty.

Calvin's teaching on God's Sovereignty (which is the foundation for the 5 points of Calvinism thought) ultimately means that an omniscient all powerful God created mankind, including Adam and Eve, with the mindset to sin and act the way they did, or do, to fulfill His purpose... For, according to Calvin's doctrine of God's Sovereignty, a Sovereign God created or formed everything, and every person, perfectly to fulfill his plans.

God makes no mistakes, and no person God creates can ever thwart His purpose for creating him or her. That is how Calvinism defines God's Sovereignty, but is NOT the way Scripture defines God's Sovereignty.

What John Calvin taught regarding God’s Sovereignty is contained in his following work:

“The Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin, Chapter 16”
See: Calvin on God’s Sovereignty | Christian History Institute
Book One of “The Institutes…,” Chapter 16 clearly reveal John Calvin’s understanding of God’s Will as 100% active.

Chapter 16
Part 1
provides the foundation for God’s sovereignty as active (God is the cause).
Part 2 denies the idea of chance and that anything in the world is random.
Part 3 counters some alternative interpretations of God’s sovereignty.
Part 6 explores God’s control of human actions.

The Calvinist definition of God's Sovereignty must be active over all the things He created for His own purpose and pleasure.

This Calvinistic understanding of God’s Sovereignty is the mindset for which all Biblical proof texts are to be interpreted, and of which the 5 points of Calvinism are founded.

To further illustrate this key point, consider the following key statements by John Calvin:

John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 206


Since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.

John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.


By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of those ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or death.

John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.


Those therefore whom God passes by He reprobates, and that for no other cause than he is pleased to exclude them….

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.

If we cannot assign any reason for [God] bestowing mercy on his people, but just that it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will. When God is said to visit in mercy or harden whom he will, men are reminded that they are not to seek for any cause beyond his will.

Question: I wonder why a Sovereign God - as Calvin describes God's Sovereignty - would have to suffer and die on the cross for our sins? If God is sovereign as Calvin defines it, why did God have to humble himself and die on the cross?

Under Calvinism, God had to die for the sins of those He elects to save to satisfy His own Justice against those He is responsible for creating for destruction, so he could lovingly save them by His grace. Consequently, this is a warped view of God's Sovereignty, Love, Justice and Grace that contradicts God's Glory as clearly stated and explained by Scripture in context.

God's Foreknowledge and Free Choice in Wesleyan doctrine explained. . .

Regarding God's Plan of Salvation, part of the decision a Sovereign God made when He created the world, and giving mankind free choice, was that such sinful acts would be possible, as much as this displeased God. Such a decision that God made to create man, then, would grieve God's holy nature. This is all explained in Scripture, which is also why God originally killed most of mankind in the flood.

Even though God is grieved with sin, God continued with His plan with mankind anyway. Why? God's greater desire for a loving relationship with His creation over-ruled His abhorrence for evil, sin and death.

In God's plan of salvation, God foreknew those through time who would, by faith, walk with God in love, and so access His grace. Such a relationship with his creation is precious to God, because God loves us so much.

Can God be glorified out of a world of sinfulness?

Absolutely, but as a redeemer and savior – who himself, the Sovereign God, voluntarily came down from heaven and humbled himself as a human servant. Why? To take the penalty of sin that Adam and Eve, and all people, are responsible for. God took the penalty for all this sin upon himself being crucified for us to satisfy His justice, so God could show His Love and Mercy for all those who genuinely humbly cry out to him for salvation from their slavery to sin and death.

Would a Sovereign God need to lay aside His glory to suffer and die in our place - for our sins - if that was not required to fulfill God's righteousness in condemning sin that we ourselves are guilty for?

Could anyone else have been able to mediate on mankind's behalf? No. No one else was worthy, so God had to do this himself...

Isaiah 59:16-17 (NIV)
16 He saw that there was no one,
he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;
so his own arm achieved salvation for him,
and his own righteousness sustained him.

17 He put on righteousness as his breastplate,
and the helmet of salvation on his head...


Would a Sovereign God need to humble himself as a man and be tortured and killed in our place if a Sovereign God could have saved us any other way?

Thankfully, God is not glorified by creating and decreeing and causing mankind and all their sinful acts, so he can take pleasure in eternally tormenting them in the lake of fire. And by some mysterious means elects to irresistibly give faith to some to believe and be saved, as if mankind were God's chess pieces in a game of arbitrary love and judgment for actions that God alone would be responsible for by His own "sovereignty."

God did not create man for the Lake of Fire. Even so, they enter the Lake of Fire because they, personally, rejected God’s grace.

The Scriptures teach God cannot show favoritism and partiality, because there is no injustice or partiality in God, so how could God mysteriously select some for salvation, and reject the rest without any chance to be saved?

God is righteous in judging everyone for their own sins, and saving those who believe. For this to happen, God’s Sovereignty must allow for mankind to be responsible for rejecting or accepting God’s gracious gift of salvation. That is what we find illustrated and taught throughout the entire body of Holy Scripture, ex. ‘The Potter and the Clay.’

The Potter and the Clay

This draws us to the Potter and the Clay – God (the Potter) forms the clay info a vessel of honor if they repent, and dishonor if they reject God’s grace. See again: 2 Timothy 2:19-21; Jeremiah 18:2-11; Ezekiel 33:11-12.

God does not form people with evil intentions; rather, Scripture reveals a God who forms people for a purpose of honor or dishonor, for condemnation or salvation, according to their own response to His grace and will.

James 1 (WEB)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.

The Calvinist doctrine of Sovereignty is, therefore, incompatible with God’s Glory as revealed in Scripture – His character. For God is Love.

Thankfully the "God" of the Calvinistic worldview is not the Holy God of Scripture.

John 3:16-18

Blessings,
setst
 
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renniks

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Great, you're arguing with Jesus, IMO.
How will the elect believe if they don't hear/read the gospel?

C'mon now, I'm gettin' ready to laugh or cry!
Is it possible for your " elect" to reach the end of life on Earth and not be saved? If not, why do they need anyone to preach to them?
 
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BCsenior

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Is it possible for your " elect" to reach the end of life on Earth and not be saved?
If not, why do they need anyone to preach to them?
I'm still not sure if an "elect" believer can lose his/her salvation.

Is an "elect" person just a born-again Christian (BAC)?
Or, is an "elect" person a BAC who has been guaranteed eternal life (in Scripture)?

Any, and all, of these believers NEED to hear/read the gospel message
in order for them to respond to it. They NEED to believe, respond, etc.

Perhaps, God could place thoughts about the Gospel message
in their minds ... and they could respond to it that way?
(If this is a brand new concept, I'm NOT copyrighting it.)
 
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dad

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Jesus said they were not given the ability to hear and understand
verse?

If you mean Matthew 13, it may not be talking about since birth (that they could not see) but since

(as it says in the same chapter) 'For this people's heart is waxed gross...'

In other words it seems that some folks had rejected the spirit of God so often and for so long that they now were not able to hear.
 
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dad

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I'm still not sure if an "elect" believer can lose his/her salvation.

Is an "elect" person just a born-again Christian (BAC)?
Or, is an "elect" person a BAC who has been guaranteed eternal life (in Scripture)?

That insinuates that some who receive eternal life, well...never received it.
 
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