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On his own, man is totally unable to believe in the gospel

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by BCsenior, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    I know 2 retired pastors who believe that ...
    God temporarily blocks the unsaved's hopeless condition
    (his spiritual blindness, and much more) to give him
    a real chance to freely accept the gospel.
    I.E. without blocking all of his many hindrances,
    the unsaved has absolutely NO hope whatsoever.

    But me: IMO, God just elects whomever He chooses
    and gives them a seed of faith so they CAN believe.
    And they CAN reject this grace, if they so choose.
     
  2. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Think a little about what you are saying:

    “Some” people have the free will choice to accept God’s grace (Love/Charity/mercy/forgiveness) as pure sacrificial charity or they can refuse to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure charity. And these “some” are seemingly arbitrarily selected by God?

    Would it be more “Loving” on God’s part to select all mature adults to be able to make this choice?
     
  3. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    C'mon, what about the not-so-mature adults?

    Okay, so you prefer the view of those pastors.

    I look at Romans 9 (NKJV) and see that God made
    "the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"
    and "the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory".

    So, you think God elects those who choose wisely?
    I think He chooses on some other basis of His choosing.
     
  4. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    What possible fair/just basis could there be?

    and:

    Ro. 9 general


    Paul uses two teaching methods that are taught in secular philosophy classes and are used even in secular classes as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.


    The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


    The main question in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


    This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after the question with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate).


    Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau?


    Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


    If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


    That is what is at issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


    Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


    Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual, but is this “letter” being written to non-Christians?


    Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


    Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in the first century in Rome?


    Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


    The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison.


    How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


    Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


    Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


    The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


    If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.






    Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?


    This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is a great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since the left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.


    To understand this is Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul also points out the common can become the honored vessel.
     
  5. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    I have often noticed that people who are struggling
    to prove their doctrine write long diatribes.
    I.E. more words will be more impressive.
    Me, I just quote a few verses.
    Romans 9 proves election (not of man's choice).

    Believers are below average humans (1 Cor 1:26+).
    Think they're responsible for figuring out
    all of your convoluted diatribe?

    Also, many spiritual Truths are somewhat hidden in
    Scripture because they would be too discomforting
    for Jesus' new babies who are slurping milk.
    Election is one of these very unpopular Truths.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  6. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    A verse in chapter 9 of Romans was not meant to be read alone and out of context. I am just trying to put the verse in contexts to understand how it was being used without copying the whole letter. Ro. 9 does not "prove election" when read in context.
     
  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Can you state in one sentence what election is about? iow, what, specifically, are people elected to?
     
  8. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    ------------------------------------------------------------
    IMO, this resolves the conflict amongst all the NT verses
    concerning eternal security, i.e. OSAS ...vs… NO OSAS:
    True saving belief = enduring faith-trust-obedience
    Those who “follow” Jesus “faithfully” are those who love
    Him and who are “obedient” to His commandments!

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    I obviously cannot list here the dozens of
    NT verses which prove all of the above!
    But, please do ask specific questions,
    unless you are one of those who refuse
    to believe obvious NT verses!



     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  9. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    So, how do the blue words resolve anything? It's just your opinion. You've not proven anything.

    The Greek word for belief is used in the aorist tense a number of times for salvation. That proves that belief doesn't mean "enduring".

    Further, cite any scholarly source that defines "believe" as obedience.
     
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