On demand abortion is murder

[redleghunter]

1-4 weeks - The embryo is a very small ball of cells.
Assuming everything goes ok, this will develop into a baby and be born.
In a sense this ball of cells is a potential as is not self aware or cognisant.

If one is to say a ball of cells which could be a person, is sacred then every cell in the body which holds the total dna of a person, which could be a person is also sacred.
4 weeks are enough for a sexual act to be called accepted, with its consequences. Unfortunately because of a lack of period as the first indicator of pregnancy comes after this point, abortions often are later in the process.

If one talks about an aware baby who has the potential for life outside the womb, this is deemed as not allowed.

So we are saying people accept the consequences of sex, the risk of getting pregnant, but are not prepared to accept the creation of such an act, a baby. This is the crux of such a debate. It is hard not to see the compounding of sinful behaviour and a lack of love into which such a baby is born, and the lack of responsibility shown by the parents.

My father was a child born out of an unfortunate liason, but the parents got married and supported the child. And I was the result of this child, being my father.

So I see the fault at a social level, at the level of care and support for young girls, who need belief and help, and often seek support in sexual relationships, rather than at an appropriate age because they feel too lonely and unloved in their teenage years.

So the cycle of sex, pregnancy, abortion is about responsibility, care, love and support in the family and in wider society. Calling it murder, rather than disfunctional behaviour that hurts the parents and families as a whole, is not helpful. At one extreme you get the idea children are a commodity, which is separate from the parent, and the other which means babies are born into uncaring and unhelpful situations which damage them and the society they belong to.

In the UK because of social media, and better feed back the rate of teenage pregnancies has dropped, though as yet there is no scientific study which can answer the why or how. I say its because of social media and feed back, because this is what has changed. So I believe more about love and communication, being the driving factor here.

The “ball of cells” argument is pure sophistry. The ball of cells is a distinct, separate in DNA from the parents human being.

These are biological facts.

 

[redleghunter]

It's not an opinion. It's an observation.

Lol which is your opinion not based on an objective analysis

 

[LightLoveHope]

The “ball of cells” argument is pure sophistry. The ball of cells is a distinct, separate in DNA from the parents human being.

These are biological facts.

The problem with pregnancy, is miss-carriages happen all the time.
Biology dictates that the parents, a mother and father form a unit into which the child is born, protected and grows to adulthood. The child is dependant on the work of the parents and their provision of security and care.

So one cannot dismiss the family into which a baby is born or the role of the parents.
As soon a society starts making value judgements at this level, we have problems.
So adoption agencies, foster care etc. become difficult subjects.

So at one extreme, no contraception should be used, and if a couple have sex and a child is created, that is Gods will, and preventing this is any form is sin.

At the other, human intervention is caring for the people involved, and giving responsibility for people over their lives and what they can cope with.

Back street abortions killed many women, and caused massive medical problems to young, ignorant girls who did not know what was happening. What we have now with sex education, ways in which young people can seek advice and support is a massive improvement.

I do not agree with abortion on demand, rather counselling with a consented conclusion by all the parties involved. All these cases are a disaster, with great pain and difficulty. In some cases if I could speak for a baby, I would not want to exist is some situations, they are just too dis-functional. The growth in the numbers of children being taken into care is testimony to we are not getting better at this at a social level.

In our fellowship, we have children born out of wed lock, to young women in floating relationships. One particular baby, who is now a young girl, is exceptionally gifted, and has brought life and happiness to many. The dad wanted an abortion, but the mother went through with the birth. I think these struggles are actually more important to us socially and we have become too much of a demand society.

 

[LightLoveHope]

sophistry

I think you are the one deceiving and not loving.
Adultery should be punished by death, and sex outside marriage with forced marriage.
Is this the society you want us to enforce?

We live is a totally inappropriate content soaked, sexually experience society, where lustful desire is deemed a simple expression of the soul. Do you think saying morality on one area is significant when it is flouted on many other areas which are as important?

Our society is not christian, and does not conform to the principles God lays down.
I think it is for us to testify to this, and what love and responsibility mean, and attempt to show love to all who are caught in this insane suffering and torment people pour on themselves.

 

[Davidnic]

And as far as people putting forth the saving your own life situation. Reminds me of the moral theology problem they gave us in seminary.

You are one of two coal miners trapped in a mine. You are conscious but hurt but given time you have every chance of survival.

The other man is unconscious and hurt badly. You have enough first aid knowledge to know he likely will not survive the time it is going to take you to be rescued.

Oxygen is a concern. You don't know exactly how long it is going to take a rescue but air is your primary concern.

Is it moral to kill the other man given the fact that you cannot reasonably expect him to survive until rescue and the air he is consuming will extend your likelihood of survival?

He is incapacitated and has little to no chance of survival. His viability is unlikely.

You are relatively unharmed.

Is it moral to kill him.

In moral theology you have to look at 3 things object, intention, and circumstance.

Objective Act: Direct intentional killing of an innocent human being.

Intention: Saving your own life.

Circumstance: The person is not expected to live and air is a concern.

When answering the question you don't even get past the end of the first line. The direct intentional killing of an innocent human being is an objectively an evil act. Intention and circumstance cannot change its nature.

 

[LightLoveHope]

When answering the question you don't even get past the end of the first line. The direct intentional killing of an innocent human being is an objectively an evil act. Intention and circumstance cannot change its nature.

I think as believers, if this situation concerns us we need to get personally involved.
Something so personal as pregnancy, abortion, birth, marriage, are explosive issues, and vary depending on who is involved and why.

My daughters raised the point about rape. And my answer is the morning after pill.
Some call this abortion, but I call it resolving sin and repentance to bringing a curse on some poor innocent individual, the potential baby who will be known as wrecking anothers life.

I see in this discussion, the focus should be in helping people resolve a disaster, and for them to find a loving God given solution to a life changing experience.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Circumstance: The person is not expected to live and air is a concern.

I like this scenario. For me the answer to it is simple.
It is all in Gods hands, and I am not to intervene to take anothers life.

I remember the classic horror film dilemma, if you do not do this horrible act your children will die.
But the lie is in connecting the two crimes. The murderer will murder no matter what one does and by their threat declare their lawlessness. We are in Gods hands, and as servants of the King, authority is given by Him to sinners over us, and so the consequences are in His hands and no one elses. Nothing we do will condemn or save another by the hands of the lawless people.

We need to rejoice in the blessing God has given us to this point, and declare our faith and thanks in Him whatever life gives us here, or in heaven when we see Him. Sinners cannot remove that which God has ordained, and we know He will deliver us.

 

[redleghunter]

I think you are the one deceiving and not loving.
Adultery should be punished by death, and sex outside marriage with forced marriage.
Is this the society you want us to enforce?

We live is a totally inappropriate content soaked, sexually experience society, where lustful desire is deemed a simple expression of the soul. Do you think saying morality on one area is significant when it is flouted on many other areas which are as important?

Our society is not christian, and does not conform to the principles God lays down.
I think it is for us to testify to this, and what love and responsibility mean, and attempt to show love to all who are caught in this insane suffering and torment people pour on themselves.

This has nothing to do with the post you partially quote.

 

[LightLoveHope]

This has nothing to do with the post you partially quote.

I am expanding upon my point. The argument of life potential justifies the sacred needs to be explored and extended to more than just pregnancy. A pacifist view is all violence is evil.

An extreme anti abortionist says all termination is evil and wrong.

So to be loving we need to compromise and in the compromise work through what this means.
I am a dad, I have seen young girls taking the morning after pill, known three girls who got pregnant and had the children, some married, some did not.

I wish I had an answer, except I come away disturbed at every level. We are heading towards a genetic revolution, and knowing things we do not know what to do with. So taking this reality on seems more important that just trying to dismiss the whole picture as not being relevant.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread is closed for review due to the many reports that have been generated.

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[Paidiske]

MOD HAT ON
This thread will remain closed.
There have been too many off topic, flaming and goading posts.
MOD HAT OFF​