On demand abortion is murder

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

That is a valid decision and application of scripture.
Should we set up a committee to control the outcome and life of every female, in any place, to ensure the pregnancy is given
-full healthcare,
-full mental healthcare
-full financial support
-and whatever level of physical activity we deem is the healthiest for the fetus?

Mental studies show that the first 3 years are important for brain development so at least 3 years of support to suport brain function and minimize deaths.

Now, with global warming, the house and senate may decide the agency
terminate every documented case of pregnancy for the 0 to 3 year olds already in the system. Good idea to have government control pregnancies?

Or we can encourage other biblical Christian values like abstinence before marriage. That would solve a lot of problems.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The problem I have with that is it makes chance of survival the benchmark for how we treat one made in the Image of God.

There are many times when a human being may not be viable without medical help or not be viable at all. but that cannot objectively change that they are human and in the Image of God.

So I think that is where that reasoning runs into a problem.

Agreed. How would an unborn child be any different that someone living on life support?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

All I hear is casting of stones towards women who have to make these choices. If more men were not so spineless and stood up and took some ownership of the pregnancy they created, instead of washing their hands after they had sex, I dare say there'd be significantly fewer abortions.

Father's have a choice? I thought that since men couldn't get pregnant they had no right to voice their concern for the life of their unborn son or daughter. In fact, there are numerous cases where men were never even made aware that they were going to be a father before the woman had an abortion, taking away his chance to be a father. Heck, there are secret abortions happening all the time behind the father's back.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I believe it is the spirit that is made in the image of God....not the flesh.......i would liken the flesh to the dust of the ground.....to which it will return..... I do not believe abortion kills souls or spirits.....only flesh.......

How do you define "kill" and at what point is a human life is no longer "alive".

 

[DamianWarS]

It is apparent premeditation is the driving concept:

Discernment in Homicide Cases. The death penalty was posed for one who killed with premeditation, but not for accidental manslaughter ( Exod 21:12-13 ; Lev 24:17 ; Deut 27:24 ). In fact, premeditated murder did not require a trial ( Exod 21:14 ; Num 35:19 ; Deut 19:11-13 ). Thus, the Old Testament saw a fundamental difference between the two types of homicide ( Deut 19:1-13 ; Joshua 20:1-7 ), providing two levels of meaning for rasah [j;x'r]. One who killed out of enmity was not allowed sanctuary in the city of refuge. The victim's clan could demand that the killer be delivered up to the blood avenger ( 2 Sam 14:7-11 ), who presented the evidence against the individual. Guilt was determined either by the intention of the killer or by the type of object used in the apparent manslaughter ( Num 35:16-21 ; some iron, stone, or wooden objects were considered likely to cause death ). However, there had to be at least two witnesses to convict a murderer ( Num 35:30 ; Deut 17:6 ; 19:15 ; 1 Sam 21:4 ). The blood avenger, who was responsible for the execution, was not allowed to pity the murderer or else the land would be defiled ( Num 35:34 ; David put himself in the hands of God because of this — 2 Sam 12:13 ). No ransom was allowed since this would have signified consent with the crime, undermining the value of human life and breaking the covenant with God. There was also no substitutionary punishment ( Deut 24:16 ; although Saul's sons were demanded as ransom after his own death because he had murdered the Gibeonites 2 Sam 21:1-9 ).

The Meaning of Rasah. Rasah probably had a specialized meaning, possibly in connection with the killing (whether premeditated or accidental) of anyone in the covenant community, especially that which brought illegal violence. The sixth commandment therefore protected the individual Israelite within the community from any danger. Only God had the right to terminate life; murder was an abrogation of his power that ignored humanity's created nature and value in the sight of God. God had to be propitiated since the covenant relationship had been broken ( Num 35:33 ). Murder deprived God of his property (the blood of the victim Leviticus 17:11 Leviticus 17:14 ), which apparently passed to the control of the murderer ( 2 Sam 4:11 ). Thus, the murderer's life was ransomed. Underlying this was the dictum in Genesis 9:6 concerning the sanctity of life. The murderer had to receive a penalty consistent with this law (lex talionis) to purge the evil from their midst ( Gen 4:10-11 ; Deut 21:8 ) and to deter others ( Deut 13:11 ; 17:13 ; 19:20 ; 21:21 ). Rasah did not cover the subject of killing in war or capital punishment, which were done only at the command of God; thus, they were not in the same category as murder.

Other Terms for Murder. The most common Hebrew word for killing (harag [g;r'h]) could also be used for murder. Pharaoh viewed Moses' killing of an Egyptian as a crime ( Exod 2:14-15 ). Joab's spilling of the blood of Abner was condemned ( 2 Sam 3:30 ; 1 Kings 2:5 ). David was responsible for the death of Uriah, although he did not physically kill him ( 2 Sam 12:9 ). Judicial murder was also condemned ( Exod 23:7 ; Psalm 10:8 ; 94:6 ). Harag [g;r'h] was the term used for Cain's crime against Abel ( Gen 4:8 ), and for the murderers of Ishbosheth ( 2 Sam 4:11-12 ). Striking a parent (possibly with the intent to murder Exod 21:15 ), inducing death by miscarriage ( Exod 21:22-23 ), and sacrificing children to a foreign god ( Lev 20:2-3 ) were apparently considered murder and were capital crimes. If a man beat a slave to death, he was probably punished (or better avenged) by being put to death by the covenant community ( Exod 21:20 ). There was no legislation outlawing suicide, as it must have been very rare. Those who committed suicide in Scripture had been placed in a situation of certain death ( Judges 9:54 ; 16:30 ; 1 Sam 31:4 ; 2 Sam 17:23 ; 1 Kings 16:18 ).

Murder Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

In murder there is a motive, an act, and a victim, you do a lot to define the former but not the latter, namely the victim. Since people disagree the motive, act and the victim all need to be defined so we are all on the same page. So for murder to happen what sort of victim are we talking about and how can this be applied to abortion?

 

[SkyWriting]

In murder there is a motive, an act, and a victim, you do a lot to define the former but not the latter, namely the victim. Since people disagree the motive, act and the victim all need to be defined so we are all on the same page. So for murder to happen what sort of victim are we talking about and how can this be applied to abortion?

Obviously the victim is an individual that has not committed any crimes yet and so is completely innocent.

 

[Zoii]

Father's have a choice? I thought that since men couldn't get pregnant they had no right to voice their concern for the life of their unborn son or daughter. In fact, there are numerous cases where men were never even made aware that they were going to be a father before the woman had an abortion, taking away his chance to be a father. Heck, there are secret abortions happening all the time behind the father's back.

Jason are you being obtuse or is it that you cant deal with these issues - Men have a choice when women get pregnant. Will I stand up and assist to raise the child as its the father - Or shall I be a spineless useless man and take off. Unfortunately, if more men chose the first and not the latter, we would have far fewer abortions.

 

[DamianWarS]

Obviously the victim is an individual that has not committed any crimes yet and so is completely innocent.

There are a lot of assumptions in what you say. What constitutes a victim of the 6th commandment? There is a lot we can kill but it's not all called murder. For example is the 6th commandment limited to people only or is it more broadly applied?

 

[Doveaman]

For the purposes of this discussion we are speaking of the premeditated decision to end a human life in the womb where the pregnant woman is not at risk of life. So please don’t argue from the life of the mother as before Roe v Wade every state had a provision for the life of the mother.

This being a theology thread I am making the statement that on demand abortion is murder as outlined in Exodus 20:13

It is the premeditated killing of human life (Imago Dei) in cold blood.

At what stage does it become human life, week 1 or week 38?

 

[RaymondG]

How am I adjusting the interpretation of Scripture to match a core belief? I think Scripture clearly shows that a child in the womb is alive. If a human being is alive then they have a spirit. The two things go together.

These two things have to go together for your cire belief to stand.....Terri you put them together and can see any other option.

The scripture clearly shows that you are you, before even being formed in the womb.....You don't begin at conception.

 

[SkyWriting]

There are a lot of assumptions in what you say. What constitutes a victim of the 6th commandment? There is a lot we can kill but it's not all called murder. For example is the 6th commandment limited to people only or is it more broadly applied?

Words are like that. They represent much more than the alphabet suggests.

It is assumed that only humans are alive, in the biblical sense. Animals don't have a living soul in them.

 

[ProjectExodus]

No...you see its got nothign to do with you - Your response is simply arrogant. Its all very well for you to cast judgment. You will never be pregnant and your life will never be in this circumstance.

All I hear is casting of stones towards women who have to make these choices. If more men were not so spineless and stood up and took some ownership of the pregnancy they created, instead of washing their hands after they had sex, I dare say there'd be significantly fewer abortions.

There is nothing wrong with choosing to save your own life - There is everything wrong with your casting stones to a woman who has saved her own life

No. I was honest. Your comment is abuse of the truth. What does spineless men have to do with a woman's choice to murder her child? And why is this woman laying with spineless men in the first place? What kind of woman is that? There are terms in the bible, virtuous ain't one. She wanted something, and got it. None of this is a license to abortion.

"A WOMAN has a RIGHT to save HER own life."

As apposed to the life of and innocent child? If you're that far along and comfortable in your faith why have cowardice? Why not pass on and go with the Lord, so the child can live?

Also, "All who open the matrix are mine." So it's the Lord's choice, not hers.

I think there are two sides though. The woman shouldn't be maimed to save the child. Cutting open the stomach, or cutting the hip/pelvis. I definitely don't agree with that. But impede on a child on its way out?

 

[DamianWarS]

Words are like that. They represent much more than the alphabet suggests.

It is assumed that only humans are alive, in the biblical sense. Animals don't have a living soul in them.

ok, so we are talking about humans killing humans, but again there are still a lot of assumptions being made. for example, what is a human and can this definition be applied to a developing child in utero if so when? Are there any exceptions?

 

[Pedra]

But personal attacks on fellow Christians off the topic are fine? What a strange rule book you've written for yourself.

Funny that the one that rejects the Christian teachings presented in the Bible & slanders the word of God thinks they should have the priviledge to do that unchallenged without being called out for the false teachings & heresies plus play victim? Jesus said "recognize them by their fruit". None of the Apostles would allow people in to their community who blatantly corrupted the teachings, the elders identified them & if they refused correction in Truth, they were to be avoided. They were not allowed in the sheep-fold let alone defended to carry on with falsehoods. Your pt has been to falsify scriptures to justify murder of babies in the womb & have attacked the very word of God by doing so & it is an attack upon God Himself exactly as was done in the garden of eden..." "Hath God said??...." Believers are told by the Bible to draw the line & know when wolves have entered the sheep-fold. You've been given lots of opportunity to receive the Truth but you refused. If a christian forum that doesn't know where to draw the line on false teachings, it has lost it's way & lampstand.
Romans 16:17-18
"I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; AVOID them.
For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
2 John 1:10-11
"If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works."

 

[redleghunter]

In murder there is a motive, an act, and a victim, you do a lot to define the former but not the latter, namely the victim. Since people disagree the motive, act and the victim all need to be defined so we are all on the same page. So for murder to happen what sort of victim are we talking about and how can this be applied to abortion?

Who do you think is the victim in a premeditated abortion?

 

[redleghunter]

At what stage does it become human life, week 1 or week 38?

We are biologically human beings at fertilization.

 

[Doveaman]

We are biologically human beings at fertilization.

Week 1 and 2 don't look human to me.

Week 3, maybe.

 

[LightLoveHope]

For the purposes of this discussion we are speaking of the premeditated decision to end a human life in the womb where the pregnant woman is not at risk of life. So please don’t argue from the life of the mother as before Roe v Wade every state had a provision for the life of the mother.

This being a theology thread I am making the statement that on demand abortion is murder as outlined in Exodus 20:13

It is the premeditated killing of human life (Imago Dei) in cold blood.

1-4 weeks - The embryo is a very small ball of cells.
Assuming everything goes ok, this will develop into a baby and be born.
In a sense this ball of cells is a potential as is not self aware or cognisant.

If one is to say a ball of cells which could be a person, is sacred then every cell in the body which holds the total dna of a person, which could be a person is also sacred.
4 weeks are enough for a sexual act to be called accepted, with its consequences. Unfortunately because of a lack of period as the first indicator of pregnancy comes after this point, abortions often are later in the process.

If one talks about an aware baby who has the potential for life outside the womb, this is deemed as not allowed.

So we are saying people accept the consequences of sex, the risk of getting pregnant, but are not prepared to accept the creation of such an act, a baby. This is the crux of such a debate. It is hard not to see the compounding of sinful behaviour and a lack of love into which such a baby is born, and the lack of responsibility shown by the parents.

My father was a child born out of an unfortunate liason, but the parents got married and supported the child. And I was the result of this child, being my father.

So I see the fault at a social level, at the level of care and support for young girls, who need belief and help, and often seek support in sexual relationships, rather than at an appropriate age because they feel too lonely and unloved in their teenage years.

So the cycle of sex, pregnancy, abortion is about responsibility, care, love and support in the family and in wider society. Calling it murder, rather than disfunctional behaviour that hurts the parents and families as a whole, is not helpful. At one extreme you get the idea children are a commodity, which is separate from the parent, and the other which means babies are born into uncaring and unhelpful situations which damage them and the society they belong to.

In the UK because of social media, and better feed back the rate of teenage pregnancies has dropped, though as yet there is no scientific study which can answer the why or how. I say its because of social media and feed back, because this is what has changed. So I believe more about love and communication, being the driving factor here.

 

[redleghunter]

Week 1 and 2 doesn't look human to me.

Week 3, maybe.

Doesn’t matter what your opinion is. The fact is we are human beings from the beginning.

 

[Doveaman]

Doesn’t matter what your opinion is. The fact is we are human beings from the beginning.

It's not an opinion. It's an observation.

I never saw a human being that shaped like a ball.