On Christianity, Judaism and the influence of other religions.

SergePB

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Honest question:
There are terms in the Bible that show they were clearly adopted from other faiths of the time that were incorporated into Judaism. For example Mal 4:1 "the sun of righteousness" - that was a known title of the Egyptian God Ra. "El" was Canaanite for a deity. Archaeologists claim that Yahweh was originally a local god, later given the titles of "El" and then promoted as the national God. Some even claim that early Hebrews (like Abraham) were polytheistic and monotheism emerged later, with Asherah as the wife of Yahweh. There are statues of mother and son in Babylon before Jesus and Mary.

Interestingly this also happened in Egypt, which was actually monotheistic at one point. (The kicker being that the single "god" was the sun).

Many Christian symbols are pagan in origin; the fish (Venus), the Cross, the dove (Hera), the star of David (the upper and lower triangles were symbolic of male and female, possibly Babylonian mysticism) and so forth. Even the word Hell comes from the name of a Nordic goddess.

Does anyone have any comment on this?
 
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Varangian Christian

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Firstly, practically every symbol has been used by every culture at some point. The fish, the cross, the Chi-Rho, all of these are Christian symbols and it doesn't matter that pagans used them at one point anymore than one would claim it isn't Christian to wear pants because pagans wore them.

Secondly, titles are the same deal. That the pagans ascribed titles to their gods that are also used in Christianity simply shows that the ignorant pagans gave the honor due to God to idols/demons out of ignorance, or the demons gave themselves these titles out of pride and to deceive their worshipers.

Thirdly, archeologists and most scientists for that matter are not trustworthy. They are for the most part ignorant when it comes to understanding religion/theology and create theories based almost entirely on guess work. For example, scholars claim the Pentateuch must have originally existed as at least two different sources because God is referred to in some places as Elohim and in other instances as Jehovah. Apparently it did not occur to them that God might be referred to differently based on the context of a passage or that God might have two different titles, much like all other gods and kings, not to mention the fact that the Elohim and Jehovah passages overlap! This is obviously a bit simplified, but the point is do not trust "scholars" or "scientists". They are not enlightened beings nor are thy even necessarily more intelligent than the average person.

Be led by the Holy Spirit and rebuke sciences falsely so called. Let us all give thanks that God has sanctified the world, that through Christ's baptism and sacrifice the holy can be experienced in the physical, and may God bless your search for truth. :crosseo:
 
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Radagast

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There are terms in the Bible that show they were clearly adopted from other faiths of the time that were incorporated into Judaism. For example Mal 4:1 "the sun of righteousness" - that was a known title of the Egyptian God Ra.

I doubt that very much.

Interestingly this also happened in Egypt, which was actually monotheistic at one point. (The kicker being that the single "god" was the sun).

I guess that you mean the Aten cult established by Akhenaten.

Many Christian symbols are pagan in origin; the fish (Venus)

Wrong. The Christian fish is a Greek acronym.

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the Cross

Wrong. The Christian cross represents the actual object on which Christ was crucified.

the dove (Hera)

Wrong.

Even the word Hell comes from the name of a Nordic goddess.

Wrong. "Hell" is a Germanic word translating a Greek one used in the NT. It refers primarily to a place (the goddess of that name came later).
 
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Phronema

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Firstly, practically every symbol has been used by every culture at some point. The fish, the cross, the Chi-Rho, all of these are Christian symbols and it doesn't matter that pagans used them at one point anymore than one would claim it isn't Christian to wear pants because pagans wore them.

Secondly, titles are the same deal. That the pagans ascribed titles to their gods that are also used in Christianity simply shows that the ignorant pagans gave the honor due to God to idols/demons out of ignorance, or the demons gave themselves these titles out of pride and to deceive their worshipers.

Thirdly, archeologists and most scientists for that matter are not trustworthy. They are for the most part ignorant when it comes to understanding religion/theology and create theories based almost entirely on guess work. For example, scholars claim the Pentateuch must have originally existed as at least two different sources because God is referred to in some places as Elohim and in other instances as Jehovah. Apparently it did not occur to them that God might be referred to differently based on the context of a passage or that God might have two different titles, much like all other gods and kings, not to mention the fact that the Elohim and Jehovah passages overlap! This is obviously a bit simplified, but the point is do not trust "scholars" or "scientists". They are not enlightened beings nor are thy even necessarily more intelligent than the average person.

Be led by the Holy Spirit and rebuke sciences falsely so called. Let us all give thanks that God has sanctified the world, that through Christ's baptism and sacrifice the holy can be experienced in the physical, and may God bless your search for truth. :crosseo:

I couldn't have put it better! From a fellow catechumen :)
 
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Mark Quayle

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Honest question:
There are terms in the Bible that show they were clearly adopted from other faiths of the time that were incorporated into Judaism. For example Mal 4:1 "the sun of righteousness" - that was a known title of the Egyptian God Ra. "El" was Canaanite for a deity. Archaeologists claim that Yahweh was originally a local god, later given the titles of "El" and then promoted as the national God. Some even claim that early Hebrews (like Abraham) were polytheistic and monotheism emerged later, with Asherah as the wife of Yahweh. There are statues of mother and son in Babylon before Jesus and Mary.

Interestingly this also happened in Egypt, which was actually monotheistic at one point. (The kicker being that the single "god" was the sun).

Many Christian symbols are pagan in origin; the fish (Venus), the Cross, the dove (Hera), the star of David (the upper and lower triangles were symbolic of male and female, possibly Babylonian mysticism) and so forth. Even the word Hell comes from the name of a Nordic goddess.

Does anyone have any comment on this?
I am no authority on the subject, but as to the claims that these other myths and religions came before Christianity (which I have heard on other forums, in threads concerning more substantial matters, such as redemption, resurrection etc,) I have always seen the plan of God from the beginning has not changed or been updated. The particulars, specially the more substantial ones, were prophesied, and probably alluded to long before even the prophecies. God has not changed, and in the beginning was the same God as he was after Christ and at present. My guess is that the other myths and religions are perverted copies of the one original.

It is not beyond the scope of reason to think it possible that Satan himself, who is wise, knows God well enough to come up with some of the themes himself.

It also is likely that some things such as symbols were hijacked from pagans, just as apparently the Christmas tree is. (It does not bother me where the Christmas tree originated. It cannot harm me nor help me. I enjoy it, because it is part of the traditions of the season. To me, it means nothing but that.)

The Creator (and there can be only one self-existent) is God. He was the first.

By the way, it appears that the traditions handed down from Adam on, were oral, learned and repeated word for word, long before anything was written.

Also, some themes are universal simply by their nature --setting captives free, devotion and self-sacrifice, etc.
 
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SkyWriting

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Honest question:
There are terms in the Bible that show they were clearly adopted from other faiths of the time that were incorporated into Judaism. For example Mal 4:1 "the sun of righteousness" - that was a known title of the Egyptian God Ra. "El" was Canaanite for a deity. Archaeologists claim that Yahweh was originally a local god, later given the titles of "El" and then promoted as the national God. Some even claim that early Hebrews (like Abraham) were polytheistic and monotheism emerged later, with Asherah as the wife of Yahweh. There are statues of mother and son in Babylon before Jesus and Mary.

Interestingly this also happened in Egypt, which was actually monotheistic at one point. (The kicker being that the single "god" was the sun).

Many Christian symbols are pagan in origin; the fish (Venus), the Cross, the dove (Hera), the star of David (the upper and lower triangles were symbolic of male and female, possibly Babylonian mysticism) and so forth. Even the word Hell comes from the name of a Nordic goddess.

Does anyone have any comment on this?


People wrongly assume Christianity was created during a particular spread of time that they choose. But if we assume the Father is real as Jesus described Him, then the source of our religion is information from day 1. So nothing is copied down from "other sources" becasue reality is the original source for everything.
 
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SergePB

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Honest question:
There are terms in the Bible that show they were clearly adopted from other faiths of the time that were incorporated into Judaism.
Thank you everyone. On thing that occurs to me also is that science is notoriously inaccurate about how they date ancient artifacts, which would be doubly difficult if comparing an ancient Semitic object or writing with the other kingdoms around them.
 
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These are questions which trouble thinking Christians at some point in their lives. It is good to ask them as it shows a desire to know God rather than have blind faith in him. My belief is that God is firmly placed in our souls, or some part of our consciousness, before we are even born. So for the ancient Egyptians, who knew nothing of the monotheistic God we worship, they developed their concept of god on what they saw and certain spiritual forces they felt. Good and evil spirits reside in every person whether they identify with God or not. For these earlier peoples, they identified them with other things until God revealed himself to mankind.

By the time Judaism reached ancient Greece for example, many Greeks had come to revere Zeus as the sole God above all gods. According to the Quran, Abraham rejected the polytheism of his father as he became consciously aware of a single, Almighty God. The fact that once God had established his authority differing religions adopted pagan practices and attributed falsehoods to him was inevitable. Humans are still trying to find ways of codifying God on their own terms but this is impossible.

The way I see it, it is crucial to seek God just as much as it is to believe in him. Only then will you learn things like how Athena was the Queen of Heaven before Mary, and that ultimately all these human stories get in the way of oneness with our Lord.
 
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SolomonVII

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Honest question:
There are terms in the Bible that show they were clearly adopted from other faiths of the time that were incorporated into Judaism. For example Mal 4:1 "the sun of righteousness" - that was a known title of the Egyptian God Ra. "El" was Canaanite for a deity. Archaeologists claim that Yahweh was originally a local god, later given the titles of "El" and then promoted as the national God. Some even claim that early Hebrews (like Abraham) were polytheistic and monotheism emerged later, with Asherah as the wife of Yahweh. There are statues of mother and son in Babylon before Jesus and Mary.

Interestingly this also happened in Egypt, which was actually monotheistic at one point. (The kicker being that the single "god" was the sun).

Many Christian symbols are pagan in origin; the fish (Venus), the Cross, the dove (Hera), the star of David (the upper and lower triangles were symbolic of male and female, possibly Babylonian mysticism) and so forth. Even the word Hell comes from the name of a Nordic goddess.

Does anyone have any comment on this?
What is the question?
 
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SolomonVII

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Humans are basically of the same nature. We experience the same reality of the world, and are faced with the same mysteries of what is the meaning of it all. We also process our experience of the world symbolically, not as rocks and cow and sun as things in themselves, but as potential tools which we employ in order to deal and make sense of the world. A rock by itself is hard and inert. To see it symbolically is to see it that it can be a useful weapon with the hardness to crush skull bones if thrown with sufficient force.
The Bible itself and all cultures that preceded it themselves were drawing from eons of preliterate and archaic experience that experienced the world symbolically from long before the first symbols were etched into stone, or sewn into leather coverings.
No culture owns the experience of the sun or the moon, or the stars. But inasmuch as our human experience of the sun is the same one for all of us, common symbology exists across cultures from times that preceded the existence of any of these cultures.
The Bible draws on the same reality as all other cultures. It’s uniqueness is not in its symbols, but in is understanding of God as personally connected to people, as a father to a son, or a son to a brother and sister. It’s uniquness is in its call to morality as a response to the personal connections engendered by such a relationship.
It is a correct understanding of God and the Bible to note that it is a sacred history with a progressive revelation of who God is, drawing from the same archaic experiences shared by all humans, and leading all who have ears to listen and ears toward an ultimate destiny.
Christianity transforms the symbols that are common to all human experience into a destiny that Christ is calling us all to. The call is as catholic as the symbols themselves.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Honest question:
There are terms in the Bible that show they were clearly adopted from other faiths of the time that were incorporated into Judaism. For example Mal 4:1 "the sun of righteousness" - that was a known title of the Egyptian God Ra. "El" was Canaanite for a deity. Archaeologists claim that Yahweh was originally a local god, later given the titles of "El" and then promoted as the national God. Some even claim that early Hebrews (like Abraham) were polytheistic and monotheism emerged later, with Asherah as the wife of Yahweh. There are statues of mother and son in Babylon before Jesus and Mary.

Interestingly this also happened in Egypt, which was actually monotheistic at one point. (The kicker being that the single "god" was the sun).

Many Christian symbols are pagan in origin; the fish (Venus), the Cross, the dove (Hera), the star of David (the upper and lower triangles were symbolic of male and female, possibly Babylonian mysticism) and so forth. Even the word Hell comes from the name of a Nordic goddess.

Does anyone have any comment on this?


Not to deny your point that things in Christianity / Judaism came from other religions (though I do disagree about most of them) my point in this response is that as it says about idols, "...they cannot help you, nor can the harm you...". Keeping oneself "unspotted from the world" is not about getting your terminology and symbols right or clean or from the original source. I have been told in apoplectic anger and panic that I MUST not have a Christmas tree, and I told them they don't have to --in fact if that is the credit they give to the pagan source of the use of a tree, I would prefer they not have one-- but that doesn't govern me; my tree is a happy thing and adds to my enjoyment what God has done.

If it is superstition to wear a cross, then by no means wear one. If it is going to cause others to stumble, then by no means wear one. But if it means nothing to you but a reminder of what God has done, why not? --Or are mature Chrsitians so easily offended?
 
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