On Baptism

[Protomartyr Alban]

Introduction
When speaking with non-Orthodox Christians I always face the same objections regarding Orthodox belief and practise on baptism and I found it tiring to go through the same things over and over, so I've decided to put this together as a reference point for myself and anyone else that may need it. Here I am attempting to prove from the scriptures alone that baptism saves us, baptism is Triune in formula, it is the Lord himself that baptises us (therefore it is a work of God, not man, that saves us), baptism is meant for infants as well as adults, and that the Eucharist along with baptism is also necessary for the salvation of man. Although I put this all together, nothing here is deduced by me, but has been passed down.


Baptism saves us and makes us disciples of the Lord
Below I have gathered twelve bible verses that plainly show baptism saves us.

1. “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again from above he cannot see the kingdom of God... Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
+ John 3:3, 5

2. “Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
+ Acts 2:38

3. “Rise and be baptised, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.”
+ Acts 22:16

4. “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.”
+ Romans 6:3-4

5. “You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”
+ 1 Corinthians 6:11

6. “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.”
+ Ephesians 5:25-27

7. “In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
+ Colossians 2:11-12

8. “He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.”
+ Titus 3:5

9. “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.”
+ Hebrews 10:22

10. “God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you.”
+ 1 Peter 3:20-21

11. “Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”
+ Matthew 28:19

12. He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
+ Mark 16:16


To break it down, based on the above list of twelve scriptural references, if you are baptised you are…

· born again from above of water and the Spirit, so that you have enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3, 5),

· forgiven your sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38),

· have your sins washed away, calling on his name (Acts 22:16),

· baptised into his death, buried with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, you too might walk in the newness of life (Romans 6:2-11),

· washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God (1 Corinthians 6:11),

· sanctified, cleansed by the washing of water with the word, so that Christ might present you to himself in splendour, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that you might be holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27),

· circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead (Colossians 2:11-12),

· saved in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5),

· having your heart sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and your body washed with pure water (Hebrews 10:22),

· saved, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for clear conscience, through the resurrection of Christ (1 Peter 3:19-21),

· a disciple of the Lord (Matthew 28:19),

· saved (Mark 16:16).


Baptism is Triune in formula and it is the Lord himself that baptises us
“And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptised? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptised with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
+ Acts 19:1-5

If baptism were “in the name of Jesus” in formula, St Paul would have no reason to wonder why they had not heard of the Holy Spirit, but instead he asks them what baptism they received, because the name of the Holy Spirit is invoked in baptism. What then does it mean to be baptised “in the name of Jesus”?

Baptising in the name of Jesus means it is done on behalf of Jesus, in his stead (it is promised that Jesus will baptise us with the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16)), but he does this through others in his name, in his stead. Take, for example, the Roman Centurion; in one gospel it says he came out to meet Jesus (Matthew 8:5-13), in another gospel is says he sent out elders of the Jews and friends to meet Jesus (Luke 7:1-10) – both are correct because they came on his behalf, so it is as though the Centurion himself went to the Lord. Another example would be the Jews crucifying Christ - they themselves didn't literally put him up on a cross, the Romans did, but it is accounted to the Jews, because the Romans did it on their behalf (Matthew 27:35, Acts 2:23, 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15).

Because of this, we can rightly say that it is Christ that baptises us and Christ has sealed us with the Holy Spirit, through the hands of his bishops/priests who are his ambassadors to us and act on his behalf, “in the name of Jesus”, but we see from Matthew 28:19 and Acts 19:1-5 that the words used in baptism are “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. Therefore, baptism is the saving work of God and not man.


Infant baptism
Baptism is for those under the curse of sin, we are baptised because we need the salvation it brings. All have sinned and indeed we are born into sin, as the scriptures say, “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” - “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” - “The venom of asps is under their lips.” - “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” - “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” - “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10-18), “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5), “The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.” (Psalm 58:3), “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.” (Romans 5:12-14).

So we see that all of mankind is born into the first Adam, and because of this needs rescuing from death. We are rescued from death by joining ourselves to the new Adam, Christ, by baptism, that we may also be joined to his resurrection from the dead (Romans 6:3-9).

There are those that will say we cannot baptise infants because they do not or cannot have faith, but this is in opposition to the scriptures, “Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.” (Isaiah 49:1), “For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb”, “And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost”, “For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.” (Luke 1:15, 41, 44), “Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.”, “But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.”, “ For thou art my hope, O Lord God: thou art my trust from my youth. By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.” (Psalm 8:2, 22:9-10, 71:5-6),

“And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.” (Luke 18:15-17),

“Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.” (Matthew 19:13-15),

“At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” (Matthew 18:1-6),

“And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased, And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?” (Matthew 21:15-16).

We see in the following passage that there is a parallel between baptism and circumcision (which boys underwent at eight days old – Genesis 17:12, Leviticus 12:3),

“In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses” (Colossians 2:11-13).

We also see that there were those that were circumcised but didn’t believe once they came of age, yet St Paul concludes it doesn’t mean they should not have been circumcised or that God is unfaithful, i.e. that it is ineffectual, though people go astray,

“What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid” (Romans 3:3-6).

Seeing then that infants can have faith, and knowing that the New Covenant is more inclusive than the Old Covenant (only boys could be circumcised [and did not choose to be, they were only 8 days old], females could not – the distinction was Jew and gentile, but now there is no Jew nor gentile in Christ, but the two have come together to make one new man – Galatians 3:28) why should we hinder the children and stop them from coming to Christ by being united with him in baptism? Furthermore, St Peter also answered “ For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” (Acts 2:39) after telling the crowd to repent and be baptised for the forgiveness of their sins. We also know from the testimony of the Scriptures that whole households were baptised (Lydia’s in Acts 16:14-15, the Philippian jailor’s in Acts 16:30-34, and Stephanas’ in 1 Corinthians 1:16 – it is also implied that the household of Cornelius the Centurion was baptised in Acts 10), these are the only households named, but certainly there are many more that were never written about; are we to believe that none of these entire households had no infants or young children?


The Eucharist along with baptism is also necessary for the salvation of man
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.” + John 6:51-56

“This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. And there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”
+ 1 John 5:6-8

The Lord breathes his Holy Spirit into us again (cf. Acts 2:17) by the “laying on of hands” (Acts 8:14-19, 19:6), thus giving us life along with the waters of baptism and the “blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28, cf. 1 Corinthians 11:25), which is the Eucharist. The water and blood issuing forth from the side of Christ at his crucifixion represents the creation of the Church, the Body and Bride of Christ, taken from the side of the New Adam (cf. Romans 5:12-19) as he is sleeping in death on the cross, as Eve was taken from the side of the first Adam as he slept (Genesis 2:21-22).


Conclusion
The scriptures teach that baptism saves us, baptism is Triune in formula, it is the Lord himself that baptises us, baptism is meant for infants as well as adults because the promise is for those that are called and their children and all mankind falls under the curse and are in need of redemption. Finally, the scriptures also teach that the Eucharist, along with baptism, is also necessary for the salvation of man.

 

[ArmyMatt]

thanks! some good stuff here.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It's good to have resources like this available, the only thing that came to mind is the way people interpret the verses provided may support their own position in their mind, but so it goes.

 

[Protomartyr Alban]

It's good to have resources like this available, the only thing that came to mind is the way people interpret the verses provided may support their own position in their mind, but so it goes.

Yes, indeed. That's why there are tens of thousands of Protestant sects. I've tried building a case with various verses of *plain* scripture, taking into account the consensus. Ultimately I find it silly to say baptism doesn't save when the scriptures say the total opposite time and time again, it's one of the things that brought me out of Protestantism. If they truly believe in scripture alone, they should believe these plain, clear passages without external influence.

 

[-57]

Baptism saves us and makes us disciples of the Lord
Below I have gathered twelve bible verses that plainly show baptism saves us.

Many people associate all baptism in the bible with water. They forget there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, with fire, etc.

If the verse's were as "plain" as you say there would be no controversial issue.

1. “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again from above he cannot see the kingdom of God... Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
+ John 3:3, 5

Can you show where water in this instance means waters of baptism?
John 4:11 The woman said to him, “Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? Could it be this water Jesus is speaking of?
Or this water...
John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”

Many theologians say the water here represents the Holy Spirit. They say John 15:3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. They say the verse can read like..."By water even the Spirit", he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Others say the water is that of natural child birth. I don't think it means that.

We can even take this route:

1 John 5:5Who then overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ—not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify:a 8the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.

John 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water flowed out.

You ned to clearly show the water here is water baptism.

2. “Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
+ Acts 2:38

Much to be said here. The bottom line... many see this baptism as purly symbolic and the baprism is because of the remission of sins.

Later in the book of Acts we see in verse 10:45 and onwards a few verses we see the Holy Spirit poured out on the Gentiles..they were saved... then baptized. We also have the thief on the cross who was saved and never baptized.

3. “Rise and be baptised, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.”
+ Acts 22:16

1 John 1 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

So, which is it? The blood of Jesus shed on the cross that washes away our sin or the waters of baptism? I'm sticking with the blood.

4. “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.”
+ Romans 6:3-4

I believe this verse has been taken out of context. You also once again assume baptism here means water baptism.

5. “You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”
+ 1 Corinthians 6:11

True, washed in the Spirit of God. Not water.

6. “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.”
+ Ephesians 5:25-27

"washing of water with the word" Some how you try to tie this with water baptism. Just because the word "washing" is used you assume it means water baptism.

7. “In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
+ Colossians 2:11-12

Once again you ake a similar mistake. Which baptism is meant here?

8. “He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.”
+ Titus 3:5

Just like point 5 above you make this verse say...by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the waters of baptism when the verse actually say's in the Holy Spirit.

9. “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.”
+ Hebrews 10:22

I think this verse refers to the high priest washing his body with water before entering into the most Holy place. Lev 16:4 Ex 29:4.

10. “God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you.”
+ 1 Peter 3:20-21

Once again a verse that points out the symbolism. Much could be said about this verse.

11. “Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”
+ Matthew 28:19

A baptism that demonstrates their death burial and resurrection is associated with the father, Son and Holy Spirit.

12. He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
+ Mark 16:16

Why doesn't the verse say ...but he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned.

That alone shows you are misusing this verse stripping it from the proper context.

Perhaps you should have added some commentary to each verse telling us why you think they all mean water baptism.

 

[-57]

they should believe these plain, clear passages without external influence.

Those passages are not as clear as you would like them to be. I presented just a few objections.

 

[Protomartyr Alban]

Hello, -57 - thanks for your response! This was just intended to be a resource for the Orthodox, but since you've posted objections and others will likely face the same objections, I'll try to give a response here. Before I start, I want to note that I didn't add commentary from Fathers of the Church because the usual objection would come "but they aren't the bible", so I tried to use just the bible. I believe the verses are plain and especially make sense when you take into account all of scripture, and the reason others think otherwise is because they have pre-existing beliefs that go against these verses, and so they have to try to rationalise why these verses don't mean what they say. Read without bias or baggage, the verses can be understood to mean what they say. This isn't always the case, sometimes more context is needed, but anyway, I'll attempt to give a response now.

Many people associate all baptism in the bible with water. They forget there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, with fire, etc.

If the verse's were as "plain" as you say there would be no controversial issue.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is mentioned once by the Lord, and he was speaking to the Apostles regarding Pentecost. St John the Baptist mentions baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire - here also I believe he means simply baptism. We do not go through Pentecost as did the Apostles (here they were ordained by the Lord and only then did they begin to be baptise others), but we receive the Holy Spirit with the mystery of baptism, by the "laying on of hands" which we see time and again in the Acts of the Apostles.

There was no controversial issue about this until the last few centuries - everyone believed baptism saves until some after the reformers began throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Can you show where water in this instance means waters of baptism?
John 4:11 The woman said to him, “Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? Could it be this water Jesus is speaking of?
Or this water...
John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”

Many theologians say the water here represents the Holy Spirit. They say John 15:3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. They say the verse can read like..."By water even the Spirit", he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Others say the water is that of natural child birth. I don't think it means that.

We can even take this route:

1 John 5:5Who then overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ—not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify:a 8the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.

John 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water flowed out.

You ned to clearly show the water here is water baptism.

Many "theologians" would say that in order to fit their own theology, it is not a proper exegesis of the text, but an eisegesis. The Lord in the places you mentioned speaks of the Holy Spirit as being water, pointing towards the link between the Spirit and Baptism, but in the other places I quoted there is nothing to indicate he is speaking of the Spirit apart from actual use of water.

I actually used that verse about water and the blood at the end of my document. What else would water and the blood mean? People were being baptised Christians and partaking of the one cup, it would make perfect sense to first century Christians. Why do you think it doesn't mean baptism?

Much to be said here. The bottom line... many see this baptism as purly symbolic and the baprism is because of the remission of sins.

Later in the book of Acts we see in verse 10:45 and onwards a few verses we see the Holy Spirit poured out on the Gentiles..they were saved... then baptized. We also have the thief on the cross who was saved and never baptized.

Many people may see it that way, but why? Someone asked "what must we do to be saved?" and the Apostle responded "repent and be baptised for the remission of sins", not "repent for the forgiveness of sins and then be baptised".

The gentiles receiving the Spirit and speaking in tongues as did the Apostles, noted by St Peter, was an exception and the only time this ever happened - in every other case the Holy Spirit was received afterwards and by the laying on of hands. This happened because the Jews around this time were unsure of God's plan for the gentiles, as we see in other places regarding food and circumcision, and which is why St Paul rebuked St Peter for only associating with Jews for "fear of the circumcision" - and because God had poured out His Spirit among the gentiles like He did with the Apostles, St Peter has justification to baptise them without any accusation from the Jews, saying "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptised, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?". The Jews surely would have accused him, and so God made all things clear by anointing these gentiles with His Spirit in the same way as the Apostles, who were Jews.

The thief on the cross is not applicable here because the thief, like everyone in the Old Testament, were in a different dispensation. The Lord instituted Christian baptism after his resurrection, it didn't exist before Pentecost.

1 John 1 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

So, which is it? The blood of Jesus shed on the cross that washes away our sin or the waters of baptism? I'm sticking with the blood.

The scriptures create no such dichotomy. By baptism we are united to the Lord in his death, and also in his resurrection, as Romans 6 says, meaning that by baptism we are cleansed by his blood because it is what unites us to the Lord. Besides this, the blood in the eucharist does this, which we also cannot be saved without, as the Lord himself says in John 6.

I believe this verse has been taken out of context. You also once again assume baptism here means water baptism.

Refer back to my previous answer.

True, washed in the Spirit of God. Not water.

It is by baptism that we are washed in the name of the Lord and in the Spirit of God, this is the clear meaning when you take into account the entirety of the scriptures without isolation.

"washing of water with the word" Some how you try to tie this with water baptism. Just because the word "washing" is used you assume it means water baptism.

What then is the washing of water with the word?

Once again you ake a similar mistake. Which baptism is meant here?

The only baptism the scriptures speak of besides what the Apostles received at Pentecost. What in the context here tells you "this does not speak of baptism with water"? Or do you get that from pre-existing belief, rather than the text itself?

Just like point 5 above you make this verse say...by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the waters of baptism when the verse actually say's in the Holy Spirit.

Yes, but why do you separate the Holy Spirit and baptism? This is what I don't understand, we see in Acts that they go together. I believe we know from the entirety of the scriptures that the washing of the Holy Spirit is baptism by water, accompanied by the laying on of hands. The work of the Holy Spirit is continuously being spoken of in relation to baptism or washing with water, I don't understand the separation - why can't God work in this way with water?

I think this verse refers to the high priest washing his body with water before entering into the most Holy place. Lev 16:4 Ex 29:4.

The verse is speaking about us, and our bodies being washed with pure water - which is linked with the sprinkling clean of our hearts.

Once again a verse that points out the symbolism. Much could be said about this verse.

The verse mirrors water saving those in the Old Testament with how water, explicitly mentioning water baptism here, saves us in the New Testament. Where is the symbolism besides the contrasting of New Testament water baptism with Old Testament saving waters?

A baptism that demonstrates their death burial and resurrection is associated with the father, Son and Holy Spirit.

That isn't what the Lord says, he simply says "make disciples" by "baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

Why doesn't the verse say ...but he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned.

That alone shows you are misusing this verse stripping it from the proper context.

Perhaps you should have added some commentary to each verse telling us why you think they all mean water baptism.

Why does the verse say "he that believes and is baptised will be saved"? You can be baptised, but because you do not believe you will still be damned. The verse does not, however, say "he that believes and is not baptised will be saved", but "he that believes and is baptised will be saved".

I hope this makes why I believe baptism almost always means by water (the only exception being Pentecost to the Apostles) clearer to you.

 

[-57]

Hello, -57 - thanks for your response! This was just intended to be a resource for the Orthodox, but since you've posted objections and others will likely face the same objections, I'll try to give a response here. Before I start, I want to note that I didn't add commentary from Fathers of the Church because the usual objection would come "but they aren't the bible", so I tried to use just the bible. I believe the verses are plain and especially make sense when you take into account all of scripture, and the reason others think otherwise is because they have pre-existing beliefs that go against these verses, and so they have to try to rationalise why these verses don't mean what they say. Read without bias or baggage, the verses can be understood to mean what they say. This isn't always the case, sometimes more context is needed, but anyway, I'll attempt to give a response now.


The baptism of the Holy Spirit is mentioned once by the Lord, and he was speaking to the Apostles regarding Pentecost. St John the Baptist mentions baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire - here also I believe he means simply baptism. We do not go through Pentecost as did the Apostles (here they were ordained by the Lord and only then did they begin to be baptise others), but we receive the Holy Spirit with the mystery of baptism, by the "laying on of hands" which we see time and again in the Acts of the Apostles.

There was no controversial issue about this until the last few centuries - everyone believed baptism saves until some after the reformers began throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


Many "theologians" would say that in order to fit their own theology, it is not a proper exegesis of the text, but an eisegesis. The Lord in the places you mentioned speaks of the Holy Spirit as being water, pointing towards the link between the Spirit and Baptism, but in the other places I quoted there is nothing to indicate he is speaking of the Spirit apart from actual use of water.

I actually used that verse about water and the blood at the end of my document. What else would water and the blood mean? People were being baptised Christians and partaking of the one cup, it would make perfect sense to first century Christians. Why do you think it doesn't mean baptism?


Many people may see it that way, but why? Someone asked "what must we do to be saved?" and the Apostle responded "repent and be baptised for the remission of sins", not "repent for the forgiveness of sins and then be baptised".

The gentiles receiving the Spirit and speaking in tongues as did the Apostles, noted by St Peter, was an exception and the only time this ever happened - in every other case the Holy Spirit was received afterwards and by the laying on of hands. This happened because the Jews around this time were unsure of God's plan for the gentiles, as we see in other places regarding food and circumcision, and which is why St Paul rebuked St Peter for only associating with Jews for "fear of the circumcision" - and because God had poured out His Spirit among the gentiles like He did with the Apostles, St Peter has justification to baptise them without any accusation from the Jews, saying "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptised, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?". The Jews surely would have accused him, and so God made all things clear by anointing these gentiles with His Spirit in the same way as the Apostles, who were Jews.

The thief on the cross is not applicable here because the thief, like everyone in the Old Testament, were in a different dispensation. The Lord instituted Christian baptism after his resurrection, it didn't exist before Pentecost.


The scriptures create no such dichotomy. By baptism we are united to the Lord in his death, and also in his resurrection, as Romans 6 says, meaning that by baptism we are cleansed by his blood because it is what unites us to the Lord. Besides this, the blood in the eucharist does this, which we also cannot be saved without, as the Lord himself says in John 6.


Refer back to my previous answer.


It is by baptism that we are washed in the name of the Lord and in the Spirit of God, this is the clear meaning when you take into account the entirety of the scriptures without isolation.


What then is the washing of water with the word?


The only baptism the scriptures speak of besides what the Apostles received at Pentecost. What in the context here tells you "this does not speak of baptism with water"? Or do you get that from pre-existing belief, rather than the text itself?


Yes, but why do you separate the Holy Spirit and baptism? This is what I don't understand, we see in Acts that they go together. I believe we know from the entirety of the scriptures that the washing of the Holy Spirit is baptism by water, accompanied by the laying on of hands. The work of the Holy Spirit is continuously being spoken of in relation to baptism or washing with water, I don't understand the separation - why can't God work in this way with water?


The verse is speaking about us, and our bodies being washed with pure water - which is linked with the sprinkling clean of our hearts.


The verse mirrors water saving those in the Old Testament with how water, explicitly mentioning water baptism here, saves us in the New Testament. Where is the symbolism besides the contrasting of New Testament water baptism with Old Testament saving waters?


That isn't what the Lord says, he simply says "make disciples" by "baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".


Why does the verse say "he that believes and is baptised will be saved"? You can be baptised, but because you do not believe you will still be damned. The verse does not, however, say "he that believes and is not baptised will be saved", but "he that believes and is baptised will be saved".

I hope this makes why I believe baptism almost always means by water (the only exception being Pentecost to the Apostles) clearer to you.

Another problem is all the John 3:16 style of verses that don't mention baptism. I'd give you a list but time doesn't permit me to do it now.

 

[Protomartyr Alban]

Another problem is all the John 3:16 style of verses that don't mention baptism. I'd give you a list but time doesn't permit me to do it now.

Take your time

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes, indeed. That's why there are tens of thousands of Protestant sects. I've tried building a case with various verses of *plain* scripture, taking into account the consensus. Ultimately I find it silly to say baptism doesn't save when the scriptures say the total opposite time and time again, it's one of the things that brought me out of Protestantism. If they truly believe in scripture alone, they should believe these plain, clear passages without external influence.

Well, there's culture changes too. People in one time period or culture read a passage differently.

 

[-57]

Take your time

John 3:16 is enough.

 

[~Anastasia~]

John 3:16 is enough.

I'm not looking to argue. But it doesn't make good sense to apply a strictly reductionist understanding to salvation.

One passage says believe and be baptized.

Another passage says repent of sins.

But can we say that because a passage exists that doesn't mention repentance, that it is surely not necessary?

I would hope not.

No verse is meant to be a "complete formula for salvation, excluding all else".

I once did an exercise, seeking every verse I could find about salvation and how we are saved. For me it was very fruitful. What I found and finally came to understood was that God offers grace through a number of means. It's not like "which boxes MUST be ticked off in order to be saved". God doesn't work like that. God works through many things - all things if we really cooperate with Him - to bring us to salvation and to become like Christ.

But that doesn't mean it's wise (or even obligating God in some way) for us to choose one or a few of them and reject the others.

God CAN save without this or that. But He is not obligated to save if we reject some means of His grace. He desires all to be saved, and will use many means. But in rejecting some we may betray (if it is the cause) a self-centeredness that ultimately rejects God.

At any rate, it is good to cooperate with God in all things He offers.

I guess I have no real interest in arguing doctrine. I tried to answer that way but I see my post really turned into something else. My apologies.

God be with you.

 

[Tutorman]

Introduction
When speaking with non-Orthodox Christians I always face the same objections regarding Orthodox belief and practise on baptism and I found it tiring to go through the same things over and over, so I've decided to put this together as a reference point for myself and anyone else that may need it. Here I am attempting to prove from the scriptures alone that baptism saves us, baptism is Triune in formula, it is the Lord himself that baptises us (therefore it is a work of God, not man, that saves us), baptism is meant for infants as well as adults, and that the Eucharist along with baptism is also necessary for the salvation of man. Although I put this all together, nothing here is deduced by me, but has been passed down.


Baptism saves us and makes us disciples of the Lord
Below I have gathered twelve bible verses that plainly show baptism saves us.

1. “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again from above he cannot see the kingdom of God... Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
+ John 3:3, 5

2. “Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
+ Acts 2:38

3. “Rise and be baptised, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.”
+ Acts 22:16

4. “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.”
+ Romans 6:3-4

5. “You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”
+ 1 Corinthians 6:11

6. “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.”
+ Ephesians 5:25-27

7. “In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
+ Colossians 2:11-12

8. “He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.”
+ Titus 3:5

9. “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.”
+ Hebrews 10:22

10. “God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you.”
+ 1 Peter 3:20-21

11. “Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”
+ Matthew 28:19

12. He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
+ Mark 16:16


To break it down, based on the above list of twelve scriptural references, if you are baptised you are…

· born again from above of water and the Spirit, so that you have enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3, 5),

· forgiven your sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38),

· have your sins washed away, calling on his name (Acts 22:16),

· baptised into his death, buried with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, you too might walk in the newness of life (Romans 6:2-11),

· washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God (1 Corinthians 6:11),

· sanctified, cleansed by the washing of water with the word, so that Christ might present you to himself in splendour, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that you might be holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27),

· circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead (Colossians 2:11-12),

· saved in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5),

· having your heart sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and your body washed with pure water (Hebrews 10:22),

· saved, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for clear conscience, through the resurrection of Christ (1 Peter 3:19-21),

· a disciple of the Lord (Matthew 28:19),

· saved (Mark 16:16).


Baptism is Triune in formula and it is the Lord himself that baptises us
“And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptised? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptised with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
+ Acts 19:1-5

If baptism were “in the name of Jesus” in formula, St Paul would have no reason to wonder why they had not heard of the Holy Spirit, but instead he asks them what baptism they received, because the name of the Holy Spirit is invoked in baptism. What then does it mean to be baptised “in the name of Jesus”?

Baptising in the name of Jesus means it is done on behalf of Jesus, in his stead (it is promised that Jesus will baptise us with the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16)), but he does this through others in his name, in his stead. Take, for example, the Roman Centurion; in one gospel it says he came out to meet Jesus (Matthew 8:5-13), in another gospel is says he sent out elders of the Jews and friends to meet Jesus (Luke 7:1-10) – both are correct because they came on his behalf, so it is as though the Centurion himself went to the Lord. Another example would be the Jews crucifying Christ - they themselves didn't literally put him up on a cross, the Romans did, but it is accounted to the Jews, because the Romans did it on their behalf (Matthew 27:35, Acts 2:23, 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15).

Because of this, we can rightly say that it is Christ that baptises us and Christ has sealed us with the Holy Spirit, through the hands of his bishops/priests who are his ambassadors to us and act on his behalf, “in the name of Jesus”, but we see from Matthew 28:19 and Acts 19:1-5 that the words used in baptism are “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. Therefore, baptism is the saving work of God and not man.


Infant baptism
Baptism is for those under the curse of sin, we are baptised because we need the salvation it brings. All have sinned and indeed we are born into sin, as the scriptures say, “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” - “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” - “The venom of asps is under their lips.” - “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” - “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” - “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10-18), “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5), “The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.” (Psalm 58:3), “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.” (Romans 5:12-14).

So we see that all of mankind is born into the first Adam, and because of this needs rescuing from death. We are rescued from death by joining ourselves to the new Adam, Christ, by baptism, that we may also be joined to his resurrection from the dead (Romans 6:3-9).

There are those that will say we cannot baptise infants because they do not or cannot have faith, but this is in opposition to the scriptures, “Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.” (Isaiah 49:1), “For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb”, “And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost”, “For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.” (Luke 1:15, 41, 44), “Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.”, “But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.”, “ For thou art my hope, O Lord God: thou art my trust from my youth. By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.” (Psalm 8:2, 22:9-10, 71:5-6),

“And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.” (Luke 18:15-17),

“Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.” (Matthew 19:13-15),

“At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” (Matthew 18:1-6),

“And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased, And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?” (Matthew 21:15-16).

We see in the following passage that there is a parallel between baptism and circumcision (which boys underwent at eight days old – Genesis 17:12, Leviticus 12:3),

“In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses” (Colossians 2:11-13).

We also see that there were those that were circumcised but didn’t believe once they came of age, yet St Paul concludes it doesn’t mean they should not have been circumcised or that God is unfaithful, i.e. that it is ineffectual, though people go astray,

“What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid” (Romans 3:3-6).

Seeing then that infants can have faith, and knowing that the New Covenant is more inclusive than the Old Covenant (only boys could be circumcised [and did not choose to be, they were only 8 days old], females could not – the distinction was Jew and gentile, but now there is no Jew nor gentile in Christ, but the two have come together to make one new man – Galatians 3:28) why should we hinder the children and stop them from coming to Christ by being united with him in baptism? Furthermore, St Peter also answered “ For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” (Acts 2:39) after telling the crowd to repent and be baptised for the forgiveness of their sins. We also know from the testimony of the Scriptures that whole households were baptised (Lydia’s in Acts 16:14-15, the Philippian jailor’s in Acts 16:30-34, and Stephanas’ in 1 Corinthians 1:16 – it is also implied that the household of Cornelius the Centurion was baptised in Acts 10), these are the only households named, but certainly there are many more that were never written about; are we to believe that none of these entire households had no infants or young children?


The Eucharist along with baptism is also necessary for the salvation of man
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.” + John 6:51-56

“This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. And there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”
+ 1 John 5:6-8

The Lord breathes his Holy Spirit into us again (cf. Acts 2:17) by the “laying on of hands” (Acts 8:14-19, 19:6), thus giving us life along with the waters of baptism and the “blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28, cf. 1 Corinthians 11:25), which is the Eucharist. The water and blood issuing forth from the side of Christ at his crucifixion represents the creation of the Church, the Body and Bride of Christ, taken from the side of the New Adam (cf. Romans 5:12-19) as he is sleeping in death on the cross, as Eve was taken from the side of the first Adam as he slept (Genesis 2:21-22).


Conclusion
The scriptures teach that baptism saves us, baptism is Triune in formula, it is the Lord himself that baptises us, baptism is meant for infants as well as adults because the promise is for those that are called and their children and all mankind falls under the curse and are in need of redemption. Finally, the scriptures also teach that the Eucharist, along with baptism, is also necessary for the salvation of man.

A wonderful resource

 

[-57]

I'm not looking to argue. But it doesn't make good sense to apply a strictly reductionist understanding to salvation.

One passage says believe and be baptized.

Another passage says repent of sins.

But can we say that because a passage exists that doesn't mention repentance, that it is surely not necessary?

I would hope not.

No verse is meant to be a "complete formula for salvation, excluding all else".

I once did an exercise, seeking every verse I could find about salvation and how we are saved. For me it was very fruitful. What I found and finally came to understood was that God offers grace through a number of means. It's not like "which boxes MUST be ticked off in order to be saved". God doesn't work like that. God works through many things - all things if we really cooperate with Him - to bring us to salvation and to become like Christ.

But that doesn't mean it's wise (or even obligating God in some way) for us to choose one or a few of them and reject the others.

God CAN save without this or that. But He is not obligated to save if we reject some means of His grace. He desires all to be saved, and will use many means. But in rejecting some we may betray (if it is the cause) a self-centeredness that ultimately rejects God.

At any rate, it is good to cooperate with God in all things He offers.

I guess I have no real interest in arguing doctrine. I tried to answer that way but I see my post really turned into something else. My apologies.

God be with you.

I mentioned John 3:16...here's a few more..just from the book of John.


Baptism

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life...no mention of baptism

John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son....no mention of baptism.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him....no mention of baptism.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life....no mention of baptism.

John 6:40 For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."...no mention of baptism

John 6:47 ruly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life...no mention of baptism.

John 11:26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies ...no mention of baptism.

John 20:31 But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name....no mention of baptism.

If baptism is a requirement...how did John miss it?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I mentioned John 3:16...here's a few more..just from the book of John.


Baptism

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life...no mention of baptism

John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son....no mention of baptism.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him....no mention of baptism.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life....no mention of baptism.

John 6:40 For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."...no mention of baptism

John 6:47 ruly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life...no mention of baptism.

John 11:26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies ...no mention of baptism.

John 20:31 But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name....no mention of baptism.

If baptism is a requirement...how did John miss it?

historically, John came last and he assumes you already know some things. great example is he was the only Gospel writer present at the Transfiguration, yet he only hints at it. so just because he doesn't state it as clearly as some would like, that doesn't mean it's not there. this is also why John writes chiastically and not chronologically.

 

[-57]

historically, John came last and he assumes you already know some things. great example is he was the only Gospel writer present at the Transfiguration, yet he only hints at it. so just because he doesn't state it as clearly as some would like, that doesn't mean it's not there. this is also why John writes chiastically and not chronologically.

So, what you are saying is that the "true" salvation method isn't presented in John's Gospel?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I mentioned John 3:16...here's a few more..just from the book of John.


Baptism

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life...no mention of baptism

John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son....no mention of baptism.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him....no mention of baptism.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life....no mention of baptism.

John 6:40 For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."...no mention of baptism

John 6:47 ruly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life...no mention of baptism.

John 11:26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies ...no mention of baptism.

John 20:31 But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name....no mention of baptism.

If baptism is a requirement...how did John miss it?

John didn't "miss it"

As Fr Matt said, John tends to fill in details and expand on things the others didn't say.

But you seem to be missing my point. Would you say that repentance is not necessary? Of all the verses you cited because of not mentioning baptism - not a single one of them mentions repentance either.

So, what you are saying is that the "true" salvation method isn't presented in John's Gospel?

True salvation is presented all through the Scriptures. That doesn't mean we can choose one (or even a few) verses and pit them against other verses as if only some are true and exclude the others.

What about the explicit "baptism now saves you"? (1 Pet 3:21) Was Peter wrong when He tells us that? Of course not.

It's all true. It just needs to be understood as a whole. The Scriptures were never meant to be dissected and studied outside of their full context.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So, what you are saying is that the "true" salvation method isn't presented in John's Gospel?

of course not, I am saying that John had a particular audience for his Gospel, and if you ignore that, you won't interpret it as God inspired it to be understood.

 

[-57]

John didn't "miss it"

As Fr Matt said, John tends to fill in details and expand on things the others didn't say.

But you seem to be missing my point. Would you say that repentance is not necessary? Of all the verses you cited because of not mentioning baptism - not a single one of them mentions repentance either.

Repentance is understanding your way won't work and you need to get saved Gods way. Once saved a form of repentance continues all through out your life. That form of repentance is linked more with sanctification.

True salvation is presented all through the Scriptures. That doesn't mean we can choose one (or even a few) verses and pit them against other verses as if only some are true and exclude the others.

I've already provided details about how you have taken some of the verses out of context..assigned "water baptism" to all mentioning of baptism....and said water washes away sin rather than the blood of Christ.
If baptism was a requirement the Bible would have obtained a chapter on it. John would have mentioned it.

What about the explicit "baptism now saves you"? (1 Pet 3:21) Was Peter wrong when He tells us that? Of course not. .

Peter wasn't wrong...you are wrong when you strip the meaning of what Peter said. That verse is deep. It's about being saved from the flood, being in the ark...a type of Christ. In fact Noah never got wet. I would suggest you spend a few hours trying to understand what the verse actually says.

It's all true. It just needs to be understood as a whole. The Scriptures were never meant to be dissected and studied outside of their full context.

As I said, according to your baptism saves theology....John's Gospel misses the mark.

 

[-57]

of course not, I am saying that John had a particular audience for his Gospel, and if you ignore that, you won't interpret it as God inspired it to be understood.

If all I had was the Gospel of John...your theology would say a simple John 3:16 belief isn't enough.

Jesus didn't say believe in me..and, oh, by the way, you need to be baptized in water.

But here's another problem....Jesus hung on the cross, paid the price in my place. It's called substitutionary atonement. Jesus also fulfilled the law I couldn't. Jesus also lived a sinless life in my place...and if baptism is a requirement Jesus was baptized by John in my place.