On baptism and coming again to faith

[togekiss]

...

 

[Thedictator]

You seem to want to explain away what the scriptures have to say to you, instead of accepting what they actually say. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are saying, if so I apologize. God's ways are not man's ways. Either accept what God say's or you don't there is no middle ground with God. It's his way or the highway. This is what God say about being noncommittal or middle of the road-Read Revelation 3:14-16.

Now for the "dreadful day of the Lord” or “glorious day of the Lord" they are the same day. For the lost it will be a "dreadful day of the Lord” for the saved it will be a “glorious day of the Lord".

Now for Acts; Peter is saying to repent and Be Baptized. Babies who are so called baptized are just being sprinkled with water nothing more. Baptism can not take place without faith, your only getting wet, faith must come first.

The things that happen after one is properly and scripturally baptized:
1. Forgiveness of sins
2. Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit
3. it is a promise for all generations to come
4. You are add to THE CHURCH not a denomination. ( Denominations have other things they want you to do to join them )

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hello, and a belated welcome to CF.

Mankind was created to live forever, in fellowship with God. God was the source of their life.

In the fall, mankind deliberately chose disobedience, which shut themselves away from God. You cannot have perfect fellowship with God while choosing to rebel. So like a person who closes the door, shutting himself into a solid box can no longer see any light and is in darkness, by that act of cutting themselves off from God (who is the source of life) ... people no longer had the ability to live forever. Death began. All die as a result, because none of us are ever born in the state mankind was created in. Death wasn't a punishment, it was just what happens when you close the door on life.

Sin has other consequences, like a sickness of the soul. People become selfish, they are angry, they hurt one another, they steal, on and on. People are all born with a sense of doing what they want to do, rather than what is good for all. So sin is like a sickness in the world.

When Jesus came, being God, and took on flesh so that He could die, he destroyed the power of death. Through His resurrection, the way was opened for everyone to be resurrected - and at the end of the age, everyone will be.

Now, what do YOU need to be saved from? No matter how much good you might try to do, which can be very good for your soul, overall there is still an inclination to be selfish, sin, etc. In the end when we are all resurrected, we will each be in the presence of God. Being God, it WILL BE awesome. Probably a little bit terrifying, no matter what, at least at first. But what happens to us then?

God loves everyone. But He is Holy, He is other, He is Divine, He is God. If we have cooperated with His grace through our lifetime, we will have become like Jesus, and that point of standing before Him in His love will be glorious. We will be like His sons and daughters.

If on the other hand, we reject His grace, and form our souls with our own desires and sins, we run the risk of being twisted into something that will be burned by being in His very presence, unable to bear His holiness and presence. This is why we need salvation.

I hope that answers both the language question, and why you need to be saved, and what from. This is the way the ancient Christians understood the Scriptures and the Gospel they handed down to us.

(You may get any range of answers though.)


As to the Jews, people before Christ, those who never hear the Gospel, it is not our place to pronounce judgement in anyone. That is God's place alone. Romans 2 does speak to how people respond to the light God has given all men, and that it affects their judgement. Old Testament persons were known to be among the "righteous". But it is always, always, only God's place to judge each person.

Yes, repentance is a change of mind, resulting in a changed life. Simple "belief" as in mental assent is not what God is asking for, since the demons certainly believe, and even tremble, but they are not in fellowship with God.

And yes, everyone in Acts WAS actually baptized. It was always, always the practice of the early Church to baptize EVERYONE who was received into the Church. It was not optional. It was the normal means of becoming part of the Body of Christ. That does NOT mean that God is constrained and cannot bestow grace apart from baptism - not at all. But if someone simply refused it would have been a matter of rebellion, and simply would not be done. Some modern denominations teach very different things about baptism than what the Apostles taught.

 

[Soyeong]

I want to believe. I think I do believe. I was in denial for so many years after feeling lost that it’s tough to admit what I really feel. I started to put up walls and push people away and, as a result, I ended up pushing God away too.

One thing I’m having a hard time getting over is the language.

Acts 2:5 “Now they were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven”

• I read this and I’m resistant to the idea of a God that I should fear, but I realized this is addressed later in the chapter.

Hello,

There is a difference between having a fear of being close to someone who and a fear of being separated from someone, and the fear of God that is the beginning if wisdom is the fear of being separated from Him. God is good and our desire to be closer to what is good to to avoid things that would separated us from what is good should lead us to enter a deeper relationship with Him.

• When quoting Joel, Peter says Acts 2:20 “great and glorious day of the Lord” but looking back to Joel 31, he said “great and dreadful day of the Lord”.

• At first this annoyed me. How can Peter just change what Joel said to sound more appealing? Obviously a glorious day sounds more inviting than a dreadful one.

The word "dreadful" can mean "inspiring awe or reverence" and I think that is the intended meaning. The Hebrew word can also mean "fear, reverence, honor, or to cause astonishment and awe". So I do not see Peter's word choice as being inaccurate.

• But at the same time, this is only Luke’s summary of what Peter said, as indicative by Acts 2:40 when he says “with many more words…”
• Yet again, I came to an understanding of why Peter may have changed the language.

I think Acts 2:40 is simply that he spoke more to them than is recorded.

Acts 2:38 “Repent and be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”

• I looked up the definition of the word repent and I have come to the understanding that it about more than simply feeling sorrow or remorse as the dictionary explains it.
• To repent is to change one’s mind, which leads to a change of behavior.
• I forgot to write down the source but I found the following online. “…from an old way of thinking in which God is denied, ignored, resented, or viewed as harsh… to a new life based on loyalty to and faith in the Creator who wants to save us rather than punish us”
  
• This relates to my earlier resistance with the language of “God-fearing” and the change from Joel saying “dreadful day of the Lord” to Peter saying “glorious day of the Lord”.

I completely agree than repentance refers to changing our thinking, which leads to a change of behavior. Repentance can refer to changing from incorrect concepts of God, but it also often used in regard to repenting from our sins. Having sorrow that we did something wrong doesn't do any good unless it leads us to change our behavior. It's about coming into agreement that we should not have taken that action in the first place.

Regarding baptism, this chapter in Acts does not discuss a ritual or ceremony involved in the baptism of the approximately 3000 new members on the day of Pentecost. Peter says “repent and be baptized” – Is penitence all this is required? Would someone baptized in the Christian church as a child (not understanding) need to go through the ceremony again in order to receive the Holy Spirit? Now that I’m at an age of reasonable understanding, is repentance and acceptance enough?

Before immersion in water was a Christian thing, it was a Jewish thing. There were thousands of mikvehs or baptismals in the temple area, which makes it very likely that that is the area where such a large number of people could have been immersed. I see plenty of support in the Bible for full immersion upon a confession of faith and no support for sprinkling babies. Immersion was a regular practice of Jews, such as doing it each time they entered the temple and it was about rededicating their lives in service to God. I know a number of people who get baptized around once a year. In Acts 10:44-48, we have an example of Gentile receiving the Holy Spirit before they were baptized where they got baptized because they had received the Spirit. In Acts 8:15-19, there were people who had been baptized, but had not received the Holy Spirit, so it is more more a step of obedience and a public declaration of faith than a ceremony to receive the Spirit, though I recommend it if you do no think that you were old enough to realize the ramifications of what you were doing.

Another thing I struggle with is the idea that I need saving.

• I’m resistant to the idea that I am in need of saving, like I’m a damsel in distress.
  
• Is this my ego getting in the way of acceptance?
  
• It’s being saved on a different level, a spiritual level. But I’m used to being independent and only having myself to rely on.
  
• It’s difficult to accept the idea that I need saving. I questioned myself; do I need saving? I don’t feel like I do. I’ve found contentment.
• What is the Bible saying that we are being saved from?
  • James 2:8 “If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself’ you are doing right" (10) “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it”
  • Romans 3:12 “…there is no one who does good, not even one” (23) “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (24) “And all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus”
  • Romans 6:18 “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness” (19) “…Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness” (21) “What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!” (22)”But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life” (23) “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”
• We are being saved from sin… does it go deeper than this?
• In following the Jewish law (pre-Christ), were the people still sinners unable to go to heaven after death? Is this saying that Jews are still not going to Heaven because they don’t follow Jesus?
  * Interesting point: I know not Christian, but Vatican recently said to stop converting Jews. Weird they would say that when this chapter in Acts is saying the exact opposite of that.
• Is being a good, loving person not good enough if you’re doing it without faith in God/Jesus?
• What are we being saved from? Alienation from/Ignorance to God? Saved from a lack of relationship with Him?

In Matthew 1:21, it says that Jesus came to save us from our sins. In Titus 2:11-14, it says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful. It also says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession to are zealous for doing good works. In Romans 6:23, it says that the wages of sin is death, so our salvation from sin is involves Jesus giving himself to pay the penalty for our sins and to train us by grace to do what is good and to refrain from sin. According to John 8:56, Abraham saw Messiah's day and was glad, so people before the cross looked forward in faith in the promise of a Redeemer just as we look backward in faith.

There are few things more anti-Semitic then saying that we should not tell Jews about our Messiah. In Matthew 23:39, Jesus said that he would not return until the Jews said "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord", so we should all be motivated to see our Jewish brothers accept their Messiah. Example of ministry in Acts were always to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles because the role of the Jews is to be a light to the nations to teach them how to serve God, walk in His ways, and to be in an intimate relationship with Him (Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6, Deuteronomy 4:5-8).

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, and in John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, which were not his own, but that of the Father, so obedience to God's commands has always been about showing our faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live, about showing our love for God, and about thereby growing in an intimate relationship with Him. So trying to be good by follow God's instructions without being focused on growing in an intimate relationship with Him is completely missing the whole point of following those instructions. In Philippians 3:8, Paul counted doing that as rubbish. In Romans 9:30 - Romans 10:4, the reason why Israel failed to obtain righteousness was because they didn't understand that the goal of pursuing the Law is a relationship with Christ for righteousness for everyone who has faith, and instead pursued the Law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own righteousness.

The Law reveals how to do what is righteous in accordance with God's eternal righteousness, but no amount of doing what is righteous will ever cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous. For example, the Law reveals that it is righteous to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will cause us to become righteous. Rather, the one and only way that there has been to become righteous is by faith, and by the same faith because we have been declared righteous we are therefore required to do what is righteous.

 

[paul1149]

How can Peter just change what Joel said to sound more appealing?

The difference lies not with Peter, but between the accepted Jewish OT texts. The Hebrew text has a word that predominately centers around fear and dread, but the Septuagint translation into Greek uses a word (epiphanes) centered on "manifest" or "illustrious". Even then, there is overlap between the two words, as the Hebrew word includes "revere", and the Greek could be read as an idiom to the effect of "great and imposing". So there's been no sleight of hand by Peter, there is legitimate room for interpretation and application, and perhaps he chose what he wanted to emphasize based on the spirit of the crowd that day.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I want to believe. I think I do believe. I was in denial for so many years after feeling lost that it’s tough to admit what I really feel. I started to put up walls and push people away and, as a result, I ended up pushing God away too.

One thing I’m having a hard time getting over is the language.

Acts 2:5 “Now they were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven”

• I read this and I’m resistant to the idea of a God that I should fear, but I realized this is addressed later in the chapter.
  
• When quoting Joel, Peter says Acts 2:20 “great and glorious day of the Lord” but looking back to Joel 31, he said “great and dreadful day of the Lord”.
  
• At first this annoyed me. How can Peter just change what Joel said to sound more appealing? Obviously a glorious day sounds more inviting than a dreadful one.
  
• But at the same time, this is only Luke’s summary of what Peter said, as indicative by Acts 2:40 when he says “with many more words…”
• Yet again, I came to an understanding of why Peter may have changed the language.

Acts 2:38 “Repent and be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”

• I looked up the definition of the word repent and I have come to the understanding that it about more than simply feeling sorrow or remorse as the dictionary explains it.
• To repent is to change one’s mind, which leads to a change of behavior.
• I forgot to write down the source but I found the following online. “…from an old way of thinking in which God is denied, ignored, resented, or viewed as harsh… to a new life based on loyalty to and faith in the Creator who wants to save us rather than punish us”
  
• This relates to my earlier resistance with the language of “God-fearing” and the change from Joel saying “dreadful day of the Lord” to Peter saying “glorious day of the Lord”.

Regarding baptism, this chapter in Acts does not discuss a ritual or ceremony involved in the baptism of the approximately 3000 new members on the day of Pentecost. Peter says “repent and be baptized” – Is penitence all this is required? Would someone baptized in the Christian church as a child (not understanding) need to go through the ceremony again in order to receive the Holy Spirit? Now that I’m at an age of reasonable understanding, is repentance and acceptance enough?


Another thing I struggle with is the idea that I need saving.

• I’m resistant to the idea that I am in need of saving, like I’m a damsel in distress.
  
• Is this my ego getting in the way of acceptance?
  
• It’s being saved on a different level, a spiritual level. But I’m used to being independent and only having myself to rely on.
  
• It’s difficult to accept the idea that I need saving. I questioned myself; do I need saving? I don’t feel like I do. I’ve found contentment.
• What is the Bible saying that we are being saved from?
  • James 2:8 “If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself’ you are doing right" (10) “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it”
  • Romans 3:12 “…there is no one who does good, not even one” (23) “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (24) “And all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus”
  • Romans 6:18 “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness” (19) “…Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness” (21) “What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!” (22)”But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life” (23) “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”
• We are being saved from sin… does it go deeper than this?
• In following the Jewish law (pre-Christ), were the people still sinners unable to go to heaven after death? Is this saying that Jews are still not going to Heaven because they don’t follow Jesus?
  * Interesting point: I know not Christian, but Vatican recently said to stop converting Jews. Weird they would say that when this chapter in Acts is saying the exact opposite of that.
• Is being a good, loving person not good enough if you’re doing it without faith in God/Jesus?
• What are we being saved from? Alienation from/Ignorance to God? Saved from a lack of relationship with Him?

Uh, "beyond yes is of the Devil", comes to mind here.


"The one of the world", more specifically.

Generally, when you have found you have tied an impossible knot for your self, remember Gordion's Knot. And Alexander's response to it.

One either believes or one does not. Whether one believes is entirely a matter of God.

Looking over the many details you have here, if one is or were (hypothetically), a "good, loving person".. one would believe Jesus.

Jesus defined good and loving in what he taught and what he did.

So........

Not sure where you are coming from, then. Have you not read the Gospels?

I can only imagine you have not, from what you said about Jesus and being "good and loving".


Did someone else say the things Jesus did and do what Jesus did? Muhammod? No. Buddha. No. Socrates. No.

So....