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Olivet Discourse historicist or preterist?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by RandyPNW, Jun 8, 2021.

  1. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Member

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    I believe Dan 12.11-12 has to do with Antiochus 4. Dan 12.7 has to do with the Last Days, and the 3.5 years rule of Antichrist. In the book of Revelation, Antichrist's rule lasts 1260 days. Antiochus 4's rule, by contrast, lasted 1290 days. It's a matter of history.

    Dan 9.21-24 has nothing at all to do with these things. Dan 7 speaks of the Little Horn as it applies to the Antichrist. In Dan 8, we read about the 2300 days, and they also speak of the entire history leading up to and ending with the death of Antiochus 4.
     
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    A couple of points. The person you are calling the Antichrist is only the Antichrist for the time he is the King of Israel - instead of (and against) the rightful King of Israel - Jesus.

    In Revelation 13, the 42 months before Jesus returns, the person is no longer the Antichrist, but the beast during that time. Being the beast is being the 8th Julio-Claudian king of the Roman Empire - which in the end times is the EU. The person as the beast will no longer be the King of Israel (the Antichrist), but the dictator of the EU.

    Antiochus was not time of the end. The 1290 days have nothing to do with him. The 1290 days are on this chart I made.



    upload_2021-6-19_20-52-38.jpeg

    Gabriel in Daniel 8 informed Daniel that the little horn, the transgression of desolation, and the 2300 days associated with the little horn person are time of the end.

    In Daniel 9:21, Daniel refers back to that vision in Daniel 8 when he first encountered Gabriel. Gabriel in Daniel 9:22-24, informs Daniel to consider that vision and that during the 70 weeks that time of the end vision and prophecy would be fulfilled.
     
  3. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Rome never had a revival from God, and Rome was not the Nation replacing Israel. Rome was already an empire before Christ was even born.

    The church of individual believers is the rock that crushed the world, the mustard seed that grew into a tree that covered the world, the leavened that leavened the whole loaf. It was not government, nor religion. It was God's Word in the hearts and minds of those who heard the call of Jesus calling them forth from death unto life, who answered that call in faith.
     
  4. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Member

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    Obviously, you're not interested in either debating it or discussing--just asserting what you believe as fact. If you can get more flexible on what you believe, let me know.
     
  5. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Member

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    The problem is the term "the time of the end" is qualified by what or whose rule it is referring to. The "time of the end" for Antiochus 4, for example, refers not to the time of the end of the age, but rather, to the time of the end of Antiochus' rule.

    It is this that causes you to interpret things the way you do, as if "time of the end" is always being applied to the end of the age. That is not so, as I see it. And many, many others agree with me. Words mean what they mean *in context.* If you place them in the wrong context, this is what you have.
     
  6. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    This is partial preterist. Are you not partial preterist with this admission? 70AD was not the abomination of desolation. 70AD is the fulfillment of Daniel 9:26

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

    This is the Cross, the veil torn, and Jerusalem destroyed.

    Daniel 9:26
    "and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

    This is still an ongoing process: a future flood unto the end of the war. The church was going strong way before 70AD. This destruction was not for nor had anything whatsoever to do with the church, the Second Coming, nor really about Israel. It was the end of the road for Israel until a flood comes and a war ends the desolation brought into Jerusalem. Not the AoD, just plain old every day desolation. Many nations would come and go, build up and desolate Jerusalem for 2 Millennia. The only AoD that happens mentioned in the OD will be after the Second Coming.

    His disciples asked about when would things happen, about the Second Coming, and the end brought about by the Second Coming.
     
  7. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was referring to Antiochus Epiphanies, because that was fresh on the minds of those living in Jerusalem at the time. Daniel 9:27 is future after the Second Coming. Christ comes as the Prince.

    27 And he (Messiah Prince) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    The Lamb and God do not make the AoD. They allow Satan and the FP to have total control in the midst of the 7th Trumpet. That is the point of Revelation 13, a few days into the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The third woe is Satan allowed to come and take over the throne in Jerusalem and set up the image in the temple. The image is the AoD, the AC. Satan is allowed, because the confirmation of the Covenant, allowed Satan access and control of the vineyard. The church was removed at the Second Coming, prior to any of the Trumpets. The Trumpets and Thunders were the final harvest of Messiah Prince, the 144k, and all the angels that came to earth.

    Matthew 24:30-31

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    The Second Coming happens before the Trumpets, because Jesus brings the angels and Trumpet to the earth. The 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders are the final harvest and The Messiah Prince has come for the harvest, along with the Lord God on the throne.

    Daniel 9:27 is fulfilled according to Revelation 10:7.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
     
  8. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The Word of God is not flexible is it? You assert Constantine created a religion and government, and by God's direct command. How flexible are you in your assertion?
     
  9. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Member

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    No, I'm *not* Partial Preterist. The belief that the Olivet Discourse and Dan 9 were fulfilled in the generation of Christ is the historicist position. I agree with that. Preterists believe the same, but view the book of Revelation in a non-Futurist way. I view the book of Revelation in a Futurist way.

    I believe Daniel spoke, in 9.26, of the death of Christ, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, and of a continuing desolation for the Jewish People. In verse 27 Daniel refers to the destroyer of Jerusalem as the "Abomination of Desolation." The Roman Army was a pagan Army set to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, and accomplished that in 70 AD. And the desolation of the Jewish People continue throughout the age--we call it the "Jewish Diaspora."

    Jesus, in his Olivet Discourse, refers to this AoD in Dan 9.27 and clearly describes the Roman Army as such in Luke's version, ch. 21. An Army "surrounds Jerusalem." Then Israel is sent into an age-long exile. Jesus called this the "Great Tribulation," or "Great Distress."

    Jesus' Disciples mentioned Jesus' Coming because they believed Messiah would come to bring God's Kingdom to save the Jewish nation. If Jerusalem and its temple were to be destroyed, surely Jesus would have to come as the "Son of Man," and save Israel, as seen in Dan 7. Jesus' Disciples wanted Jesus to tell them how the destruction of the temple fit in with his appearance as Savior of Israel and Messiah of Israel.
     
  10. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Member

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    I'm open to any statement that is reasonable, whether I agree with it or not. It's not about a competition, but about a shared attempt at getting at God's truth. If all we're doing is stating the "truth," as we see it, and not hearing anybody else out on the same subject, then what are we here for?

    I'm not asking you to accept my opinion, but only to consider it. It's worth my time to have someone who disagrees with me tell me why my position is weak or reasonable. You don't have to agree!

    On the same token, if all you do is state your own opinion as "fact," without considering that there may be flaws in your argument, then again, no sense discussing it. We all make mistakes. It's not about who made so many mistakes or not. Rather, it's about trying to look at things objectively, regardless of who is right. We just need to look at the arguments openly, not to see who's right, but to see what arguments merit consideration.
     
  11. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

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    What a graphic of prophecy! Why is the antichrist only the antichrist for the Kind of Israel time? Is there another one that follows?
     
  12. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Yet you place the majority of the OD as 70AD. That is not only historist, but partial preterist.


    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    This is not the reason they fled in 70AD. They fled years before 70AD, when the Romans massed a huge army against Jerusalem. When many fled, the city became a haven of several rebel leaders. The Romans took back their legions. When 70AD started, Jerusalem had gotten too far out if hand. Once again Titus came. No one fled. In fact at Passover the Romans let thousands of Jews from all over enter the city. Many were not allowed to leave. But that is the claim of Josephus. How do historist and preterist just make up their own historical account by conjecture, without any record or confirmation from God's Word?

    God's Word:

    "and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"

    Jesus is the Messiah Prince. The rebel Jews trashed Jerusalem and burned down the temple. That is the fulfillment of prophecy.

    Antiochus Epiphanies did not destroy Jerusalem nor the temple. He just set up the AoD.

    The Romans were not the source of 70AD. They just ended up doing a better job than the rebels did. The Romans did not fulfill any prophecy. They were just at the proverbial, wrong place at the wrong time.

    Jesus did claim the temple would be destroyed, but the OD was not about Jerusalem being destroyed at any particular time. It was incorporated into the Second Coming and the end of life as we know it. Not life as the Jews knew it. That ended at the Cross. Yes, the Cross opened up the Gospel to the whole world. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple did not bring the Gospel to the world. 70AD was not the Second Coming and the end of:

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
     
  13. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but where is this taught in the NT, that the blessings of the nations are power and wealth?
     
  14. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Member

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    Israel was a model to the nations that God blesses, with prosperity and vitality, the nation that serves Him.

    Jer 6.18 Therefore hear, you nations;
    you who are witnesses,
    observe what will happen to them.

    Deu 30.19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.


    The whole earth was made a witness to what God was doing with Israel under the covenant of Law. If not in their own time, the truth about their history was made known later, through the Gospel. The testimony God gave to Israel was that they would be blessed materially and spiritually in their obedience, and cursed in their disobedience.

    This is not Prosperity Doctrine. Rather, it is a general truth. Even though bad things happen to good people who live in an ungodly world, and even though good people are persecuted, it is generally true that those who please God are materially blessed by Him.

    We know what the "blessings" were that God used to acknowledge Israel's obedience. They are listed as the blessings on Mt. Gerizim. And clearly, they included material blessing, prosperity, health, victory, etc.

    Gen 26.4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed.

    Psa 33.12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people he chose for his inheritance.

    Jer 4.1 “If you, Israel, will return,
    then return to me,”
    declares the Lord.
    “If you put your detestable idols out of my sight
    and no longer go astray,
    2 and if in a truthful, just and righteous way
    you swear, ‘As surely as the Lord lives,’
    then the nations will invoke blessings by him
    and in him they will boast.”

    Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

    My argument here is not that nations will guarantee they *only* be blessed when they obey God. Rather, it is that generally, they will be materially blessed for their collective obedience. When nations adopt a godly Constitution, that nation generally will experience prosperity.

    The promise God made to Abraham was that he would have a nation after his own biological DNA and nations after his own spiritual DNA who would endure forever and who would experience, like him, God's blessings. We read that Abraham was blessed by God and that he would bring a blessing to the nations. We know that the continued existence and material prosperity of these nations are involved in this.

    Gen 12.2 “I will make you into a great nation,
    and I will bless you;
    I will make your name great,
    and you will be a blessing.
    3 I will bless those who bless you,
    and whoever curses you I will curse;
    and all peoples on earth
    will be blessed through you.”
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
  15. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Member

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    You are trying to persist in assigning a false name to my position. I am *not* a Partial Preterist. You apparently don't understand the difference between the historicist position and the Preterist positions. It involves more than just the interpretation of this one passage, the Olivet Discourse.

    I may agree with a Mormon on a Scripture passage that teaches there is only one God, but that doesn't make me a Mormon. PPs are identified, often, by their view of the Olivet Discourse. But historicists only agree with them on some of this. Agreeing with them that the AoD was fulfilled in the time of 66-70 AD or thereabouts does *not* make them PPs!

    Historicists don't make up their own historical account by conjecture. I don't know what makes you think they do? They have the same sources as anybody else.

    Jesus warned his followers to flee when they see the AoD. They were to recognize when a foreign army, clearly the Romans, surrounded Jerusalem. This happened the 1st time in 66 AD, under the leaderships of Cestius Gallus. That's when followers of Jesus could start planning, trying to avoid Sabbath restrictions.

    But when the Romans came back in 70 AD, those who gathered in Jerusalem to defy the Romans were doomed. Christians still in the fields or in their homes had no time to prepare--they had to flee immediately.

    Jesus' "people" are Christians. And Christians did *not* destroy Jerusalem and the temple--the Romans did! The "prince" is therefore the Roman general.

    Antiochus 4 devastated Jerusalem and the Jewish People who tried to remain faithful to the Law. He murdered many thousands of them. He defiled the temple by preventing proper worship there.

    The difference between the AoD of Antiochus 4 and the AoD of the Romans is that Antiochus didn't annihilate the temple, and the Romans did. Obviously, the Romans destroyed the temple completely because God was finished with the Old Covenant of Law. But in Antiochus' time, God wasn't finished with the Law, and He wasn't condemning all of Israel, since many Jews tried to remain faithful to the Law.

    The commonality between what Antiochus did and what the Romans did was that they tried to destroy the people of God's covenant and their worship. But in the time of the Romans, God was done with Israel's worship, and was done with their legal system.

    Historicists would disagree with you. The Church Fathers would disagree with you. I would take their word over yours. And it makes much more sense. The 4 empires Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar dreamt about are often accepted to be Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. Rome has played a huge role in world history. I do accept Rome's place in God's prophetic plan.

    But this is precisely what Jesus was asked! He was asked *when* this destruction of the temple in Jerusalem would take place! Jesus gave the initial birth pains of this development. He asked his own generation and his own disciples to watch for it. How can you say the destruction of Jerusalem was not predicted to be for any particular time? How can you say the Romans were not prophetically involved? That's exactly what happened!

    The 70 Weeks do not bring us to the end of the age--only to the 1st Coming of Christ, and to the destruction of Israel that followed. The punishment of Israel that only began in 70 AD has continued throughout the age in the form of the Jewish Diaspora. It will end, I believe, at the 2nd Coming.

    I'm certainly not saying that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and in 135 AD was the 2nd Coming! These events precipitated the Great Punishment of the Jewish People, as Jesus mentioned in Luke 21. Jesus' 2nd Coming will end the Jewish Diaspora.
     
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I asked specifically for NT scripture that clearly defines that the gospel brings earthly, material wealth and power to the nations.

    The only verse provided from the NT, in your response, was Galatians 3:8, which doesn't say the gospel brings earthly, material wealth and power.

    It seems we may just have to agree to disagree.
     
  17. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Member

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    Sorry, I think I missed the importance you were placing on it being a NT quotation! But we may have to disagree, in the absence of OT references, because I don't think we can fully appreciate NT concepts apart from OT references. For example, if in the NT we are told that someone is "blessed" by God, we would have to go back into the OT to find out what "God's blessings" were.

    There is an emphasis, in the NT, on being blessed with eternal life, which is an individual thing, rather than a national thing. But Jesus, even before the cross, indicated that his followers would be blessed even up to 100x as much in this lifetime, when they give up things for him. This is NT Scripture, but the OT era.

    Mark 10.29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life."
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jeff, the person is the Antichrist only for the time he is the King of Israel because the term "christ" means anointed, coming from a greek word christos, which in turn was greek for the jewish word for "messiah", which the hebrew word means anointed.

    The term anointed applied to kings and priests. The "Lord's anointed" in the old testament meant someone that God Himself specifically picked.

    "the" messiah is a narrowed down form of the general anointed term to mean the promised great King of Israel descended from King David, to lead Israel and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety around the world.

    In John 4, Jesus was talking to the woman at the well. Which in that verse the connection is made between Christ and messiah.

    25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

    Jesus was/is the rightful King of Israel messiah but the Jews rejected him as their king.

    Jesus in John 5:43 said that although he came in the name of the Lord (to be their king - implied), they would accept another coming in his own name. i.e. someone that God did not send to be their king. A reference to the Antichrist.

    "Anti" is a prefix meaning "instead of" and/or "against". In the case of the Antichrist, the person will be King of Israel, instead of Jesus, and also against Jesus.
    __________________________________________________________________

    There have only been three Kings of Israel when it was a united nation before breaking up into the northern and southern kingdom following Solomon's death.

    After Solomon's death.....

    The northern kingdom was the northern ten tribes who decided to breakaway under Jeroboam, one of Solomon's officials in the government. They retained the name of Israel, also called Ephraim.

    The southern kingdom was the southern two tribes, which went by the name of Judah. They were under Rehoboam, Solomon's actual son.

    The book of Kings in the old testament is about the kings during the break up period.

    In Ezekiel 37, there is the prophecy about the two kingdoms being reunited as one nation again. That is what has happened in the current nation of Israel over there. Ezekiel 37 also indicates that the reunited nation would have one king over them - a reference to the messiah to sit on David's throne (i.e. king over united Israel). So that is what the Jews are looking for.

    Their big mistake will be in thinking the little horn person coming from the EU is their messiah. That person will be anointed the King of Israel - but coming in his own name - and thus becomes the Antichrist when it happens.
    _______________________________________________________

    Later on, about 3 years into his reign, he betrays the Jews by going into the temple, sitting claiming to be have achieved God-hood. That ends his time as the Antichrist, as the Jews will reject him as continuing as their King of Israel.

    Revealed to be the man of sin, the person's next move is to become the beast, falling back on his EU background, which the ten EU leaders will hand the EU over to him to be dictator - for the final 42 months before Jesus returns.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
  19. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

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    Makes good sense to me. Thanks for the detailed explanation with Scripture, which is very helpful to see the point being made. You ever thought about putting all your drawings into a book and having it published? I think nowdays with digital editing and publishing it might be something that could be done for a good author like you without millions spent on start up costs. In fact, I wonder if there would be much cost at all. I'd be an investor for a few bucks if you ever decided to take such a turn. I love your graphics and with a bit of text to introduce each one, it could become an excellent guide to at least your and my view of eschatology, which isn't far from the more popular views and close enough that it could be very broadly accepted. Give the profits away if you don't need them, perhaps to an overseas mission to spread the gospel to the rest of the world, so that no one is without a chance. If we are truly in the last days, such a book could make a difference. I'm sure it could be translated into other languages easily, with online tools, since the vast majority of content is in the illustrations and not mere words (referring to your catalog book of prophetic drawings).

    Just a thought!
     
  20. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Except there is no historical record of an AoD in 70AD. None whatsoever. The AoD will be at the Second Coming. 99% of the Olivet Discourse is about the Second Coming. 1% was about fleeing from the Roman Army a few years prior to 70AD. Jesus did not dwell on Herod's Temple being destroyed. Herod's Temple was never part of God's plan. Show me one verse of the OD, not what Jesus prophecied coming out of Herod's Temple, that shows Jerusalem and the temple being destroyed. The answer to their questions, not the prophecy that prompted them to ask the questions.
     
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