Oldest extra-biblical instance of "praying in tongues" for self-edification?

TruthSeek3r

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Very simple question: in the history of Christianity, when was it claimed for the first time (outside of the Bible, to avoid exegetical controversies, please) that the gift of tongues could be used in the context of private prayer, i.e. that Christians could edify themselves by speaking in tongues in their private prayers to God? Are there extra-biblical writings from early Church Fathers saying this, for example?

(Notice that I'm not saying anything about "angelic languages", it could perfectly be prayers in unknown real human languages too.)
 

TruthSeek3r

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There is no gift of tongues...there is a manifestation of the gift (12:7) which is tongues.
But, how or why would you go outside of the source of truth to look for answers.

To seek historical confirmation for that particular way of interpreting the passage. Not everybody interprets it the same way.
 
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sandman

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To seek historical confirmation for that particular way of interpreting the passage. Not everybody interprets it the same way.

I know we don’t interpret the Bible the same way …which is the reason we have so many religions in Christianity …but we are not implored to interpret …but to rightly divide….to see how it fits together.

Although I do understand your thought, and I guess it sounded like I was questioned your reason for the info you seek…but that was not my intent.
I guess I am unyielding when it comes seeking biblical truths outside of the Word of God and don’t consider the objective of the searcher…..which is none of my business.
 
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spiritfilledjm

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Very simple question: in the history of Christianity, when was it claimed for the first time (outside of the Bible, to avoid exegetical controversies, please) that the gift of tongues could be used in the context of private prayer, i.e. that Christians could edify themselves by speaking in tongues in their private prayers to God? Are there extra-biblical writings from early Church Fathers saying this, for example?

(Notice that I'm not saying anything about "angelic languages", it could perfectly be prayers in unknown real human languages too.)

As far as post-Bible occurrences, it appears that tongues did continue, but was never wide-spread until Azuza. Some early church historians and theolgians like Chrysostom and Augustine stated that by their time, tongues were obsolete, had all but ceased, and was an obscure practice. Considering that the Roman Catholic church considered it heresy anyways, that's no shock as to why it was "an obscure practice" and if anyone did speak in tongues, they kept it under wraps. It didn't quite start picking up steam again until the late 17th century when several different religious sects of Christianity started speaking in tongues. The ones in Europe were largely persecuted for their beliefs.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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Some early church historians and theolgians like Chrysostom and Augustine stated that by their time, tongues were obsolete, had all but ceased, and was an obscure practice. Considering that the Roman Catholic church considered it heresy anyways, that's no shock as to why it was "an obscure practice" and if anyone did speak in tongues, they kept it under wraps. It didn't quite start picking up steam again until the late 17th century when several different religious sects of Christianity started speaking in tongues. The ones in Europe were largely persecuted for their beliefs.

But did it ever occur in the form of private prayer? Many skeptics of tongues for prayer claim that the gift of tongues is intended for preaching the gospel to foreigners, or for prophecy in the assembly (when there is interpretation), not for prayer. When was the first time that someone explicitly claimed that tongues had a valid usage in private prayer (outside of the Bible)?
 
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spiritfilledjm

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But did it ever occur in the form of private prayer? Many skeptics of tongues for prayer claim that the gift of tongues is intended for preaching the gospel to foreigners, or for prophecy in the assembly (when there is interpretation), not for prayer. When was the first time that someone explicitly claimed that tongues had a valid usage in private prayer (outside of the Bible)?

The sources I used...which were cessationist oddly enough lol...were not that specific. MacArthur states that Augustine and Chrysostom states that tongues had completely ceased by their time....but then that they called it an obscure practice, meaning that it had not ceased but was rarely practiced during the time. During my research on your question, I couldn't really find any websites or sources that specifically talk about tongues after John except for folks trying to explain that they had ceased.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The sources I used...which were cessationist oddly enough lol...were not that specific. MacArthur states that Augustine and Chrysostom states that tongues had completely ceased by their time....but then that they called it an obscure practice, meaning that it had not ceased but was rarely practiced during the time. During my research on your question, I couldn't really find any websites or sources that specifically talk about tongues after John except for folks trying to explain that they had ceased.
The scripture also instructs to pray so you can interpret - this is so you can provide the same level of edification to the church a prophet could. In this case you wouldn't be a prophet, but the text does mention "mysteries that edify the spirit" so if these were translated to the common tongue without the "baby talk" then no one would observe the speaking in tongues bit but be uplifted all the same.
 
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Saint JOHN

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Isa 28v11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This [is] the rest [wherewith] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Jesus said...John4v24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

a) Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

so according to the word.....

b) 1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

and..1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue.

Jesus already told us to go private place to pray;

people get confused with the operation in the Church (people NOT A BUILDING), max 3 tongues, corresponding interpretation, max 3 prophecy (this is how a TRUE church is run !)

how the church started (and is still doing the same today !)

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Repent..(babys cant !! this is a clear man made blasphemous concept !)
Baptism.. Greek; dip, immerse etc fully under the water; symbol of burial
that is natural mans part..
God will respond (for real) by giving you the Holy Spirit as you have done a simple act of obedience HIS WAY; and just like ALL then and now they spoke in tongues as the spirit gave utterance.

Jesus also said ( to warn his disciples against religious types )..

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

unfortunately today most do NOT confess (say the same as nor agree with) Jesus only with there mouth they worship as there heart (not filled with the spirit) is far from God(still only natural .

ever learning and never able to come to the FULL truth.
The blind lead the blind....

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

HIS WAY NOT MANS CONCEPTS.

Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
 
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Aussie Pete

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Very simple question: in the history of Christianity, when was it claimed for the first time (outside of the Bible, to avoid exegetical controversies, please) that the gift of tongues could be used in the context of private prayer, i.e. that Christians could edify themselves by speaking in tongues in their private prayers to God? Are there extra-biblical writings from early Church Fathers saying this, for example?

(Notice that I'm not saying anything about "angelic languages", it could perfectly be prayers in unknown real human languages too.)
John and Charles Wesley preached the baptism of the Holy Spirit. John Wesley said that the lack of manifestations was because of the unbelief of the church, not because the gifts had lapsed. I was told decades ago that John Wesley used to pray in tongues while traveling to preach, but I can find nothing to confirm this. I have found this most interesting quote:

"It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the church for more than two or three centuries. We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian; and, from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby, heaped riches and power and honour upon the Christians in general, but in particular upon the Christian clergy. From this time they almost totally ceased; very few instances of the kind were found. The cause of this was not, (as has been vulgarly supposed,) `because there was no more occasion for them,’ because all the world was become Christians. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian. The real cause was, `the love of many,’ almost of all Christians, so called, was ‘waxed cold.’ The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine his church, could hardly `find faith upon the earth’. This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian church; because the Christians were turned heathens again, and had only a dead form left."

Personally, I used to pray in tongues but the desire faded away. Watchman Nee called it baby talk.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Sometimes in our interpretation of Scripture, we miss the small phrases, mainly because our preconceived notions cause us to gloss over them as being relatively unimportant. Take 1 Corinthians 14:2 for instance.

"For he who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not to men but to God", etc.

Now, what does this say? It says that the person speaking in tongues is speaking to God, and not to men. So, where do we speak to God? In our private prayer rooms. Jesus said not to pray our prayers in public where all we get is praise from man, but to go into our private chamber and speak to God in secret. So, when a person speaks to God, he goes into his private chamber and speaks to God in secret.

Paul says that if we are going to speak to others (speaking to men), then we don't do that in our private chamber. We speak to them in the public environment.

Those who are prejudiced against tongues try to tell us that the only place to speak is in the public meeting and must be interpreted, and Paul teaches that the public speaking of tongues needs to be followed by interpretation. But he also says that if there is no interpreter, the person must speak to himself and to God. To do this, the person has to withdraw from the public arena and find a private place to speak to God in tongues.

The argument about whether there is a modern day gift of tongues is irrelevant, because Paul clearly states that there is the ability to speak in tongues given by the Holy Spirit, and that there are two environments - public, followed by interpretation, and private (to himself and to God).

The trouble with many Pentecostals and Charismatics when they speak in tongues, they don't know who they are actually speaking to. They just talk away in tongues, mainly because it is the thing to do in Pentecostal services, but have no real awareness that they are speaking to God Himself and communicating mysteries in the Spirit. This is because of inadequate and often incompetent teaching about the gift. (just start saying ba ba shana bata and now you are speaking in tongues!) Getting around a person at an altar call in church and getting him to spout a bit of babble and call it tongues, isn't the reception of the genuine gift. But seeking God privately in prayer and in the word and asking Him to give the genuine gift and not being content until the Holy Spirit inspires an articulate and expressive language that gives the person the absolute witness in his or her spirit that there is real communication with God going on, is more appropriate for knowing that what is received is the real McCoy.
 
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spiritfilledjm

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Sometimes in our interpretation of Scripture, we miss the small phrases, mainly because our preconceived notions cause us to gloss over them as being relatively unimportant. Take 1 Corinthians 14:2 for instance.

"For he who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not to men but to God", etc.

Now, what does this say? It says that the person speaking in tongues is speaking to God, and not to men. So, where do we speak to God? In our private prayer rooms. Jesus said not to pray our prayers in public where all we get is praise from man, but to go into our private chamber and speak to God in secret. So, when a person speaks to God, he goes into his private chamber and speaks to God in secret.

Paul says that if we are going to speak to others (speaking to men), then we don't do that in our private chamber. We speak to them in the public environment.

Those who are prejudiced against tongues try to tell us that the only place to speak is in the public meeting and must be interpreted, and Paul teaches that the public speaking of tongues needs to be followed by interpretation. But he also says that if there is no interpreter, the person must speak to himself and to God. To do this, the person has to withdraw from the public arena and find a private place to speak to God in tongues.

The argument about whether there is a modern day gift of tongues is irrelevant, because Paul clearly states that there is the ability to speak in tongues given by the Holy Spirit, and that there are two environments - public, followed by interpretation, and private (to himself and to God).

The trouble with many Pentecostals and Charismatics when they speak in tongues, they don't know who they are actually speaking to. They just talk away in tongues, mainly because it is the thing to do in Pentecostal services, but have no real awareness that they are speaking to God Himself and communicating mysteries in the Spirit. This is because of inadequate and often incompetent teaching about the gift. (just start saying ba ba shana bata and now you are speaking in tongues!) Getting around a person at an altar call in church and getting him to spout a bit of babble and call it tongues, isn't the reception of the genuine gift. But seeking God privately in prayer and in the word and asking Him to give the genuine gift and not being content until the Holy Spirit inspires an articulate and expressive language that gives the person the absolute witness in his or her spirit that there is real communication with God going on, is more appropriate for knowing that what is received is the real McCoy.

I agree with most of what you said except for the last paragraph. Besides that, couldn't have put it better myself. Biblically though, most of the instances of one being baptized in the Holy Spirit did happen when one laid their hands and prayed that they might receive it. Acts 19:1-5 is a great example of this. While I do agree that more firm, better teaching does need to happen in a lot of Charismatic circles regarding the proper, biblical practicing of the gifts, one should seek out their church leaders that they may receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit, though one can also pray to God for it as well if they wish or if they don't have a church that they are connected with that still practices.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I agree with most of what you said except for the last paragraph. Besides that, couldn't have put it better myself. Biblically though, most of the instances of one being baptized in the Holy Spirit did happen when one laid their hands and prayed that they might receive it. Acts 19:1-5 is a great example of this. While I do agree that more firm, better teaching does need to happen in a lot of Charismatic circles regarding the proper, biblical practicing of the gifts, one should seek out their church leaders that they may receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit, though one can also pray to God for it as well if they wish or if they don't have a church that they are connected with that still practices.
I fully agree that one who is seeking the gifts of the Spirit should seek out assistance from a pastor who is well-trained and experienced in the prophetic. Philip knew he didn't have the experience or training to get the Samaritans baptised with the Spirit, so he got Peter and John to come and impart the Spirit to the people. So a person can be a powerful Gospel preacher, but unskilled in assisting people to receive the baptism with the Spirit and the gifts.

The problem that we have in many Pentecostal and Charismatic churches is the attitude that any tom dick and harry can gather around a candidate, lay hands on the guy and expect things to happen. The trouble is that people with serious spiritual problems can be laying hands on people and imparting stuff that may not be completely wholesome. I don't allow anyone I don't know laying hands on me, and when I pray for someone for healing, I just lightly touch their wrist. I wouldn't want to impart any of my craziness to anyone! :)

In the same way, I don't receive unsolicited prophecies from people I don't know. I would never know what might jump out at me!
 
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