Old-School Pentecostals and Wesleyan Holiness Christians

Methodized

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I attended a Church of God, Anderson IN congregation for over 25 years until about 5 years ago.
Early on, they preached holiness, entire sanctification, but the last 10 years I was there, the church shifted away from that theology, and is unrecognizable from the seeker friendly churches.

It is really interesting to me the very wide diversity of Christian groups that have Wesleyan roots boot a very different from each other.
 
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Methodized

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It has given the holiness movement a bad name when others see sin remaining in those who claim to be without it because they don't have fully developed discernment yet. I think Charles was more Illumined than John.

Wesley did believe in entire sanctification but never claimed it for himself and, in fact, believed that claiming it publicly was a fair sign that you probably hadn't received it.

That is my biggest objection to denominations that encourage Christians to proclaim that they've been entirely sanctified. The temptation is to claim something you don't have because your denomination claims you have to have it. I see full sanctification as a gift of God, not something anyone achieves. God grants it at his will.

As to Charles being more sanctified than John, I don't see evidence of that. If Charles had his way, all of us would still be members of the Church of England.
 
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bmjackson

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Wesley did believe in entire sanctification but never claimed it for himself and, in fact, believed that claiming it publicly was a fair sign that you probably hadn't received it.

That is my biggest objection to denominations that encourage Christians to proclaim that they've been entirely sanctified. The temptation is to claim something you don't have because your denomination claims you have to have it. I see full sanctification as a gift of God, not something anyone achieves. God grants it at his will.

As to Charles being more sanctified than John, I don't see evidence of that. If Charles had his way, all of us would still be members of the Church of England.

JW did not speak as though he was in the ES state though he believed it, agree. I think there were/are more than him who was confused by this. Agree it is a gift from God. Personally I would refuse to answer that question, it serves no purpose to do so. The apostle Paul did however in 1 Thess 2:10.

Going by the hymns of Charles, he did seem to have more knowledge of the blessing and they did argue about some part of it. Do you have any info on that?

Being ES does not mean that one is perfect in knowledge.
 
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Methodized

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JW did not speak as though he was in the ES state though he believed it, agree. I think there were/are more than him who was confused by this. Agree it is a gift from God. Personally I would refuse to answer that question, it serves no purpose to do so. The apostle Paul did however in 1 Thess 2:10.

Going by the hymns of Charles, he did seem to have more knowledge of the blessing and they did argue about some part of it. Do you have any info on that?

Being ES does not mean that one is perfect in knowledge.

I don't think any of us can judge externally who has and hasn't achieved perfection. Honestly, I don't see the Thessalonian passage saying that Paul had reached complete sanctification. All the passage says to me is that he behaved righteously towards the Thessalonians.

"You are witnesses, and God also, how pure, upright, and blameless our conduct was toward you believers." 1 Thes. 2:10 NRSV.

That doesn't seem to contend for me that he was claiming righteousness in all ways. He also talked about his "thorn in the flesh" too in another passage. (2 Cor. 12)
 
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RoBo1988

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It is really interesting to me the very wide diversity of Christian groups that have Wesleyan roots boot a very different from each other.
The CoG (Church of God) Anderson, D.S. Warner is regarded as the founder, was a split from the CoG Winebrenner church, which was a split from the German Reformed Church. As far as I can tell, the Wesleyan roots started with CoG Anderson.
The Church of God, Cleveland TN (my wife and I also attended one for a few years), has similar beliefs to the CoG Anderson church, but they are Pentecostal, CoG Anderson, does not practice tongues.
 
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bmjackson

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I don't think any of us can judge externally who has and hasn't achieved perfection. Honestly, I don't see the Thessalonian passage saying that Paul had reached complete sanctification. All the passage says to me is that he behaved righteously towards the Thessalonians.

"You are witnesses, and God also, how pure, upright, and blameless our conduct was toward you believers." 1 Thes. 2:10 NRSV.

That doesn't seem to contend for me that he was claiming righteousness in all ways. He also talked about his "thorn in the flesh" too in another passage. (2 Cor. 12)

When one has been ES themselves, they recognize the 'marks' in others - just as when one is converted they know who else has been just by talking to them even briefly. At one time, I thought that I could see it in a persons eyes.

Sorry I am a bit rusty now, not having read Wesley for some time, but he was expressing uncertainties that would not be common in one ES. He also described one event and not two in his writings to describe his spiritual journey - his illumination as the Orthodox would call it.

If he and his companions had the confidence to claim that they did not sin when with the Thesses, how on earth does that add up to it being just a one off when even an omission is still sin? And he did not write anything in his correspondence to others who had been ES whereas he would, even if he did not publically claim it.

The thorn could be an illness in possibly his eyes.
 
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Methodized

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When one has been ES themselves, they recognize the 'marks' in others -

I have to admit, from my theological background, you totally lost me there.

I have never in person met anyone who claimed entire sanctification. It just doesn't happen in United Methodist circles. We don't talk about entire sanctification in any regular way and no one claims it, much less the ability to sense it in another.
 
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bmjackson

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I have to admit, from my theological background, you totally lost me there.

I have never in person met anyone who claimed entire sanctification. It just doesn't happen in United Methodist circles. We don't talk about entire sanctification in any regular way and no one claims it, much less the ability to sense it in another.

Yes it is true that few today are claiming it in the way that it was understood in the time of the Holiness revivals. During those times, it was very common to meet those who claimed ES. And of course in the early church where it was called Theosis. It is very clear in the Divine Liturgy as the whole service is a plea to God for it.

It is like meeting someone from your own country abroad, just one look could tell you where they are from and once they open their mouths.....
 
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Methodized

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Yes it is true that few today are claiming it in the way that it was understood in the time of the Holiness revivals. During those times, it was very common to meet those who claimed ES. And of course in the early church where it was called Theosis. It is very clear in the Divine Liturgy as the whole service is a plea to God for it.

It is like meeting someone from your own country abroad, just one look could tell you where they are from and once they open their mouths.....

I am no expert in theosis. But what I read about it seems to suggest that theosis is achieved through certain spiritual practice. Wesley was pretty clear that full sanctification was a grace gift of God and not achievable by any particular practice.

I'm not sure they are identical concepts.
 
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bmjackson

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They say that it is a gift received through grace and not earned. Spiritual practices are advised during the process of preparation. Some however, do teach that water baptism permits the grace but that is not how the early church has taught it. They like Protestants and Catholics have gone off track.

Their understanding of it is of purity and sinlessness. This is why Wesley was a fan.
 
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Methodized

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They say that it is a gift received through grace and not earned. Spiritual practices are advised during the process of preparation. Some however, do teach that water baptism permits the grace but that is not how the early church has taught it. They like Protestants and Catholics have gone off track.

Their understanding of it is of purity and sinlessness. This is why Wesley was a fan.

I'd have to disagree with your contention that the early church didn't teach that baptism is is a gift of God's grace. In Wesleyan theology baptism is a clear example of God's prevenient grace. It is God's choosing us, not us choosing God.
 
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bmjackson

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I'd have to disagree with your contention that the early church didn't teach that baptism is is a gift of God's grace. In Wesleyan theology baptism is a clear example of God's prevenient grace. It is God's choosing us, not us choosing God.

Can you rephrase that please?
 
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Methodized

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Can you rephrase that please?

In Wesleyan theology baptism is a clear example of God's prevenient grace. Baptism is a sacrament, not a personal choice. Baptism is God choosing us. That is why it is appropriate for infants or at any age.
 
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Methodized

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If water baptism confers grace to salvation, how come the thief on the cross would be with Christ in paradise?

I didn't say that receiving baptism means that you are guaranteed salvation.

Salvation in mainstream Wesleyan theology is not a moment or an event, it is a life long journey of walking with God. Someone who has been baptized can apostatize for example. the Bible tells us it is God's desire that none perish. But we don't always cooperative with God's will that we be redeemed.

I also didn't say that baptism was necessary for salvation or the only way that we receive grace from God. You added the words "to salvation." No one action saves you. In Wesleyan theology we aren't "saved" past tense. We are still being saved. Remember we don't believe in "eternal security."

As to the the thief on the cross, his journey with Christ was short, but before the end he followed Christ and thus was redeemed.
 
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bmjackson

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Thanks for the explanation - I am not really up on Wesleyan theology, I only understand that they share the same spirituality as Orthodoxy.

I don't get the idea of never knowing if you are saved or not. Baptism of the Spirit confers entire sanctification yes?
 
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Methodized

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By the way this "Methodist/Nazarene" forum isn't a place to try to argue Methodists and other Wesleyans out of our beliefs. I'm happy to answer questions about what our theology is. I'm not interested in arguing about what our theology should be. Or for attempts to talk Wesleyan Christians out of being Methodists/Nazarenes, etc.
 
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Methodized

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Thanks for the explanation - I am not really up on Wesleyan theology, I only understand that they share the same spirituality as Orthodoxy.

I don't get the idea of never knowing if you are saved or not. Baptism of the Spirit confers entire sanctification yes?

Methodists believe that as long as you are following Christ you have assurance of salvation. But we don't believe that we lose our free will once we start following Jesus. If I were to choose to walk away from Christ I'd not be saved. Few people do that. Real apostasy is a purposeful decision to walk away from God. It isn't something you can do accidentally.

It would be like a doctor examining me and say, "your health is so good you will live to be 85 years old." But tomorrow I jump off a cliff. That doesn't invalidate that I'd have lived to 85 if I'd not done something stupid.
 
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Methodized

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Yes I agree with that. But not that the process just go9es on. Wesley said that it is like death - there is a process but at some point one dies. That point is entire sanctification right?

Sanctification is the point. But, at least for Methodists, sanctification isn't really about sinless perfection. Its about "being made perfect in love." Sanctification is reaching a state in which we love God, the world and our fellow human beings as Christ loves us. The is no perfection without perfect love.
 
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