Old-School Pentecostals and Wesleyan Holiness Christians

[renniks]

No one action saves you. In Wesleyan theology we aren't "saved" past tense. We are still being saved.

Im not so sure I agree. I was raised Wesleyan Methodist, so most of what is being talked about here is familiar to me. I have serious doubts about those claiming ES on one hand but I also don't hold it against them. They were just following what they were taught. But there was certainly testimony about a moment of salvation, in fact that was strongly emphasized. The only real difference from mainline churches on salvation was that it could be lost. Sanctification was taught as something that happened in a moment of time rather than a process. I do rather miss the loud fervent praying. It doesn't happen in the churches I've attended since.

 

[renniks]

Methodists believe that as long as you are following Christ you have assurance of salvation. But we don't believe that we lose our free will once we start following Jesus. If I were to choose to walk away from Christ I'd not be saved. Few people do that. Real apostasy is a purposeful decision to walk away from God. It isn't something you can do accidentally.

Well said. I've tried to explain this to Calvinists but they don't seem to get that there's a world of difference between "losing" salvation and deliberately throwing it away.
We can't lose it but we can certainly choose to walk away from God.

 

[Methodized]

Im not so sure I agree. I was raised Wesleyan Methodist, so most of what is being talked about here is familiar to me. I have serious doubts about those claiming ES on one hand but I also don't hold it against them. They were just following what they were taught. But there was certainly testimony about a moment of salvation, in fact that was strongly emphasized. The only real difference from mainline churches on salvation was that it could be lost. Sanctification was taught as something that happened in a moment of time rather than a process. I do rather miss the loud fervent praying. It doesn't happen in the churches I've attended since.

This may be a different view between "Wesleyan Methodist" and "United Methodist."

I will give you a quote from "United Methodists and the Sacraments" published by Abingdon Press. Rev. Gayle C. Felton, 2007. This is a book in an official doctrinal series published in the 2000s.

"Unlike some Christians, then and now, Wesley never believed that humanity was divided into the saved and unsaved. Instead, he taught that all of us are at some point in the ongoing process of salvation. Our place in the journey changes: Sometimes we are moving forward, sometimes sliding back. Because we have freedom to make moral decisions and respond positively or negatively to divine grace, we determine our progress on the journey."

If someone asks me "are you saved" my response is always "I am being saved, God's work isn't finished."

 

[Methodized]

Well said. I've tried to explain this to Calvinists but they don't seem to get that there's a world of difference between "losing" salvation and deliberately throwing it away.
We can't lose it but we can certainly choose to walk away from God.

Yes! And I've noticed Calvinist claim that Arminians/Methodists believe in "losing your salvation." We don't. My salvation isn't like a coin in my pocket I can accidentally lose.

 

[bmjackson]

Sanctification is the point. But, at least for Methodists, sanctification isn't really about sinless perfection. Its about "being made perfect in love." Sanctification is reaching a state in which we love God, the world and our fellow human beings as Christ loves us. The is no perfection without perfect love.

Agreed about perfect love, but it is the reason why one will will no more tolerate the idea of moving out of God's will, as it is done in heaven, rather than separate from it.

The Wesley's got it all from the patristic fathers who can help one understand it more completely who said that the church is a hospital for souls, whereas western Christianity makes it a law court.

 

[bmjackson]

Im not so sure I agree. I was raised Wesleyan Methodist, so most of what is being talked about here is familiar to me. I have serious doubts about those claiming ES on one hand but I also don't hold it against them. They were just following what they were taught. But there was certainly testimony about a moment of salvation, in fact that was strongly emphasized. The only real difference from mainline churches on salvation was that it could be lost. Sanctification was taught as something that happened in a moment of time rather than a process. I do rather miss the loud fervent praying. It doesn't happen in the churches I've attended since.

Those who do not believe in ES, are just really admitting that it has not happened to them. It seems inconceivable unless one experiences it although it us true that some people have falsely believed it about themselves - l think there is a famous case.

 

[renniks]

Those who do not believe in ES, are just really admitting that it has not happened to them. It seems inconceivable unless one experiences it although it us true that some people have falsely believed it about themselves - l think there is a famous case.

I have no problem admitting that even at my best moments I am far from perfect.
I know some people I consider much more godly than myself, but I don't believe any have achieved perfection.

 

[bmjackson]

I have no problem admitting that even at my best moments I am far from perfect.
I know some people I consider much more godly than myself, but I don't believe any have achieved perfection.

The problem is, that in these dark days, the blessing has left us, and there are few who are walking in it, or will have their own idea of what it is.

The original understanding of it is it is the return to Adam's state before the fall, or the fulfillment of the Lord's prayer.

There is much confusion about the subject which you would expect when it is a danger to the enemy of souls.

 

[Methodized]

The Wesley's got it all from the patristic fathers who can help one understand it more completely who said that the church is a hospital for souls, whereas western Christianity makes it a law court.

I think that is an oversimplification of Wesley. He got a lot from the patristic fathers but his doctrinal statements come straight out of the Church of England minus the Calvinist bits. He also got a lot of his spirituality from his Moravian experiences. He was quite eclectic.

 

[Methodized]

Those who do not believe in ES, are just really admitting that it has not happened to them.

Um, no. I've never found the argument persuasive that, "if you just had the experience I've had you'd agree with me."

I feel the same way about complete sanctification as I do about speaking in tongues. I believe some have these gifts from God but not all who claim such gifts do.

Part of the reasons for these claims is that a few Christians have taught the idea that if you've not been fully sanctified or can't speak in tongues (or whatever else) you aren't a good Christian. There is a real danger in promoting ideas that lead any Christian to think they are superior to another. If someone experience sanctification it is solely a gift from God. If someone has the gift of tongues it has nothing to do with their own merits.

Anything else become works righteousness.

 

[bmjackson]

I think that is an oversimplification of Wesley. He got a lot from the patristic fathers but his doctrinal statements come straight out of the Church of England minus the Calvinist bits. He also got a lot of his spirituality from his Moravian experiences. He was quite eclectic.

I think I agree. I am studying a thesis by an Orthodox theologian (d 2000) these last few days who is explaining the differences between patristic theology and the western ones, of which Wesley never left, and there is a huge gulf between them, not just a few doctrines added on.

 

[bmjackson]

Um, no. I've never found the argument persuasive that, "if you just had the experience I've had you'd agree with me."

I feel the same way about complete sanctification as I do about speaking in tongues. I believe some have these gifts from God but not all who claim such gifts do.

Part of the reasons for these claims is that a few Christians have teach the idea that if you've not been fully sanctified or can't speak in tongues (or whatever else) you aren't a good Christian. There is a real danger in promoting ideas that lead any Christian to think they are superior to another. If someone experience sanctification it is solely a gift from God. If someone has the gift of tongues it has nothing to do with their own merits.

Anything else become works righteousness.

I agree with that. Though if someone has been truly ES'ed or as I would prefer to call it - glorified - being more scriptural, then they will never think that they are superior. It will have been knocked out of them.

 

[Methodized]

I agree with that. Though if someone has been truly ES'ed or as I would prefer to call it - glorified - being more scriptural, then they will never think that they are superior. It will have been knocked out of them.

I'd use the term "sanctified" in Methodist speak. For United Methodists the whole thing is largely theoretical rather than a practical. I never hear any preaching about it. The only time the subject comes up is when the ordinand is ask, "Do you hope to be made perfect in this life..." during our ordination services.

We are far more concerned with someone being on the path rather than if someone has reached the goal or not.

 

[bmjackson]

I gained much more understanding regarding the variously named doctrine of 'second blessing' holiness, from the Orthodox theologians who were qualified to teach on it. In fact at one time, you had to obtain that state in order to be a bishop, but as time went on, when more heresies arose, the rule was relaxed.

Other holiness denominations in the west also found a diminishing number to take up leading roles unless it was a time of revival.

Patristic teaching is that the Illumined are on the path of wholeness or holiness and are seeking it earnestly but are limited regarding their ability to help others get there, though it is better than nothing. They are half healed as it were.

God grants the blessing at will and as you say, it has nothing to do with the recipient's efforts and people can be in the blessing at various times for various lengths. That really helped me to stop beating myself.