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Figured I'd post over here for additional commentary.
I've been wanting to make this post for awhile after being inspired by other discussions here in Christian Forums.
In continuation of:
Old Earth Geology Part 1 and Part 2
I wanted to make a brief post about the green River formation.
As most of you know, the green River formation consists of roughly 5 million varves.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...r-Basin-by-Fred-McLaughlin-and_fig9_269202365
View attachment 268385
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-Green-River-Formation-showing_fig2_234238517
varves - Google Search
And within these varves there is evidence of rapid burial such as when entire schools of fish were buried:
An Incredible Fossil Contains a Whole School of 259 Fish
As well as gradual burial, in which we have foot tracks and resting traces, displaying the passage of time needed for life to casually walk around in sediment:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...entral-Utah-Soldier-Summit-and_fig2_281823202
With uniformitarianism and an old earth, this formation is sensible. Varves are observed in the present day to form as annual deposits, and this formation is roughly 5 million years of age.
Changing seasons result in the melting of glaciers which increases energy in meltwater, thereby moving heavier sediment. Winter comes around and glaciers reform, energy in the flow of melt water decreases, and so too does the size of sediment carried by flow of lower energy. The cycle repeats over and over, year after year, thereby producing varves, 5 million in number.
Varve - Wikipedia
Within some varves, fish can be rapidly buried by well known and common occurances such landslides, avalanches, rock falls, topple, rock slides etc.
avalanche rock slide topple - Google Search
Otherwise deposits can take an extended period of time, allowing for life to walk around in shallow portions of the lake between seasons.
But what do we get when we analyze this formation from a young earth perspective?
Propositions that a global flood produced the formation some 5,000 years ago?
Well, let's do the math. 5,000,000 varves / 5,000 years = 1,000 varves per year, every single year to the present day. Well, that doesn't make any sense. Aside from the fact that flood waters cannot produce repeating sequences of rock, a thousand times over in a single year...one would have to wonder how deposits stopped forming the moment we decided to look at the formation.
There simply are known physics that could be used to explain how a flood could deposit such a massive collection of varves in such a brief period of time.
But perhaps more than 1,000 varves formed in a single year. Maybe 2,000 formed per year for 2,500 straight years? Well of course this is even more rediculous than the prior suggestion.
Perhaps the global flood deposited all 5,000,000 varves in a single year? Well, that would suggest the deposition of some 13,000-14,000 varves every single day for 365 straight days. Of course this doesn't make any sense either and is more physically ludicrous than the prior two proposals. No physics known to man could ever explain such a thing.
Could a flood make cyclothems? Well it could make one cyclothem of a grade of varying layers. But it couldn't make hundreds, let alone thousands, let alone millions of repeating sequences of strata. Such an idea defies all known physics.
But what makes matters even worse for young earthers is that, as we see in the cross section at the beginning of this post, the green River formation makes up just a small sliver of an overall far more expansive geologic column. The green River formation might only be around 2,000 feet in thickness, while the geologic column at large, spans some 25,000.
So young earthers really can't explain even the smallest fraction of the geologic column.
But further, sections of the green River formation are also shaped like lakes. In that it's lithology changes from the outside of lakes, to the inside.
Fossil Butte
These basins arent even shaped as if they were deposited by a flood. And the fossils of them,
further identify with shallow lacustrine fresh water environments.
Now, some creationists make the claim that fossils have been found to cross cut multiple varves, thereby suggesting that varves were instantaneously deposited.
Aside from instantaneous deposit of varves contradicting known physics, it is known that varves may vary in thickness. And while varves may vary in thickness, we do not find fossils which cross cut multiple varves. The discussion can be ended by simply asking them to present evidence for their claims.
In every aspect of examination, the green River formation strongly indicates an ancient earth, millions of years old.
I will continue to edit and update this post, but for now this can be a draft. I actually have a part 4 in mind too, but one at a time.
I've been wanting to make this post for awhile after being inspired by other discussions here in Christian Forums.
In continuation of:
Old Earth Geology Part 1 and Part 2
I wanted to make a brief post about the green River formation.
As most of you know, the green River formation consists of roughly 5 million varves.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...r-Basin-by-Fred-McLaughlin-and_fig9_269202365
View attachment 268385
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-Green-River-Formation-showing_fig2_234238517
varves - Google Search
And within these varves there is evidence of rapid burial such as when entire schools of fish were buried:
An Incredible Fossil Contains a Whole School of 259 Fish
As well as gradual burial, in which we have foot tracks and resting traces, displaying the passage of time needed for life to casually walk around in sediment:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...entral-Utah-Soldier-Summit-and_fig2_281823202
With uniformitarianism and an old earth, this formation is sensible. Varves are observed in the present day to form as annual deposits, and this formation is roughly 5 million years of age.
Changing seasons result in the melting of glaciers which increases energy in meltwater, thereby moving heavier sediment. Winter comes around and glaciers reform, energy in the flow of melt water decreases, and so too does the size of sediment carried by flow of lower energy. The cycle repeats over and over, year after year, thereby producing varves, 5 million in number.
Varve - Wikipedia
Within some varves, fish can be rapidly buried by well known and common occurances such landslides, avalanches, rock falls, topple, rock slides etc.
avalanche rock slide topple - Google Search
Otherwise deposits can take an extended period of time, allowing for life to walk around in shallow portions of the lake between seasons.
But what do we get when we analyze this formation from a young earth perspective?
Propositions that a global flood produced the formation some 5,000 years ago?
Well, let's do the math. 5,000,000 varves / 5,000 years = 1,000 varves per year, every single year to the present day. Well, that doesn't make any sense. Aside from the fact that flood waters cannot produce repeating sequences of rock, a thousand times over in a single year...one would have to wonder how deposits stopped forming the moment we decided to look at the formation.
There simply are known physics that could be used to explain how a flood could deposit such a massive collection of varves in such a brief period of time.
But perhaps more than 1,000 varves formed in a single year. Maybe 2,000 formed per year for 2,500 straight years? Well of course this is even more rediculous than the prior suggestion.
Perhaps the global flood deposited all 5,000,000 varves in a single year? Well, that would suggest the deposition of some 13,000-14,000 varves every single day for 365 straight days. Of course this doesn't make any sense either and is more physically ludicrous than the prior two proposals. No physics known to man could ever explain such a thing.
Could a flood make cyclothems? Well it could make one cyclothem of a grade of varying layers. But it couldn't make hundreds, let alone thousands, let alone millions of repeating sequences of strata. Such an idea defies all known physics.
But what makes matters even worse for young earthers is that, as we see in the cross section at the beginning of this post, the green River formation makes up just a small sliver of an overall far more expansive geologic column. The green River formation might only be around 2,000 feet in thickness, while the geologic column at large, spans some 25,000.
So young earthers really can't explain even the smallest fraction of the geologic column.
But further, sections of the green River formation are also shaped like lakes. In that it's lithology changes from the outside of lakes, to the inside.
Fossil Butte
These basins arent even shaped as if they were deposited by a flood. And the fossils of them,
further identify with shallow lacustrine fresh water environments.
Now, some creationists make the claim that fossils have been found to cross cut multiple varves, thereby suggesting that varves were instantaneously deposited.
Aside from instantaneous deposit of varves contradicting known physics, it is known that varves may vary in thickness. And while varves may vary in thickness, we do not find fossils which cross cut multiple varves. The discussion can be ended by simply asking them to present evidence for their claims.
In every aspect of examination, the green River formation strongly indicates an ancient earth, millions of years old.
I will continue to edit and update this post, but for now this can be a draft. I actually have a part 4 in mind too, but one at a time.
Last edited:
