old earth creationism

MCA

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I lost my faith in college and i have been wanting to return to the faith ever since which is why i am off and on on this forum.

I am more geared towards believing in an old earth, In my findings i see that many CHristians believe in an old earth. How do i reconcile an old earth with creationism. I feel as though the earth being old supports evolution much more than creation, As in, if the earth is old how is creation possible. DOes this mean that God created sea animals the first billion years and then all of a sudden create the land animals, then the 3rd billion year he made man? I kind of dont understand this. I found a nice website that i used to look at called...reason.org i believe (could be a diff website as ive looked at tons of them), and they believe in old earth creation. But to me it made no sense. THe website was great and everything i loved it, but up until they started saying they dont believe in evolution is when i was left wondering how is this possible.

Please help me reason. THank you for your time
 

Sedoy

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MCA

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Yes, i have heard of fallen angels and Nephilim and such that lived on earth in the past. Supposedly the greeks saw them as gods, while others say these things were the attempts of satan to prevent a pure bloodline and from the messiah being brought into the world. Also megalithic structures of ancient times make me also think that these huge human like creatures may have existed, bones etc also reveal this. But generally speaking i find it difficult to imagine a very old earth and creationism, as stated earlier.


To the other commentor, i will look at your posted videos. I know a young earth view seems to be the minority these days esp among scientists and even a lot of christians, i still really enjoy to hear what has to be said and evidences for it.
 
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Sedoy

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I know a young earth view seems to be the minority these days .

If you want to be follower of God this is where you start. You get used to being part of minority not matter now small that minority is. There was this one guy called Noah. One godly guy in the whole world! He must have felt like a minority big time!
 
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Faulty

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I lost my faith in college and i have been wanting to return to the faith ever since which is why i am off and on on this forum.

I am more geared towards believing in an old earth, In my findings i see that many CHristians believe in an old earth. How do i reconcile an old earth with creationism. I feel as though the earth being old supports evolution much more than creation, As in, if the earth is old how is creation possible. DOes this mean that God created sea animals the first billion years and then all of a sudden create the land animals, then the 3rd billion year he made man? I kind of dont understand this. I found a nice website that i used to look at called...reason.org i believe (could be a diff website as ive looked at tons of them), and they believe in old earth creation. But to me it made no sense. THe website was great and everything i loved it, but up until they started saying they dont believe in evolution is when i was left wondering how is this possible.

Please help me reason. THank you for your time


It could actually be both. I'm not saying it is, but I read the creation in light of other scriptures that seem to suggest to me the literal 6 days of creation, was actually 6 days as we know it (Exodus 20:11 states as much), but might have been a re-creation, just as He promises to do again at the end of this age.
 
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seashale76

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My standard copy and paste of older posts of mine when this topic comes up:

Fact 1: Evolution is observable in nature. Natural selection is part of evolution, as is mutation, and genetic drift- these things exist. One example that proves evolution to you and even fits within a 24-hour timeline: Bacterial evolution, in every sense of the word, occurs very rapidly.

Fact 2: Our scriptures do not touch on the how of creation, because that wasn't the point of them. It's silly to read science into something that was never meant to convey such things. The purpose of the scriptures is to reveal God's purpose for man via the person of Christ. Evolution, the age of the earth, etcetera- or a vehement denial of the lack thereof- simply isn't found in the scriptures AT ALL. The only thing the scriptures tell us is that God is responsible for creation. The Old Testament points to Christ with types and anti-types of Christ. The scriptures aren't scientific documents, and I honestly don't see how science can be applied to them. Genesis is based on oral tradition and has a completely different focus than what science would even be looking at.

That people expend so much energy trying to make this a salvation issue- when all Christians involved believed that creation wouldn't be possible without God is petty and missing the forest for the trees. The only issue on this matter that a theist should have with an atheist is that of abiogenesis- but that is directly related to one camp not believing in God- and is the only issue of any import.
 
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seashale76

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That is simply a clear lie. You may believe it and spread it but it is still a lie. It is as much of a myth as a unicorn.


The Scientific Case Against Evolution


Bacterial evolution negates your claims to the contrary. Evolution is observable. It exists. Railing against this fact is not going to make it go away.
 
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Sedoy

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Bacterial evolution negates your claims to the contrary. Evolution is observable. It exists. Railing against this fact is not going to make it go away.

Did you read that article? You did not.

The only people who say that evolution is observable are the ones who do not even understand what evolution is. Variations within a specie is not evolution.
 
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Harry3142

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In order to understand what Moses' purpose was for writing the creation stories (there are 2; Genesis 1:1-2:3 & Genesis 2:4-25) we need to realize that there was already a creation epic which was very familiar to the people that Moses was in charge of:

www.theologywebsite.com/etext/egypt/creation.shtml

In this earlier creation epic the surface of the earth was a deity, the atmosphere was a deity, the stars were the garment worn by Queen Nut, and the sun and moon were deities. The egyptian pantheon of gods and goddesses contained well over 40 different deities, with every one of them having a physical form.

Moses methodically 'stripped' all of these deities of their very existence. The sun, moon and stars were merely objects in the sky which gave the people light. The earth and atmosphere were merely two aspects of this planet, with no divinity attached to them. The animals which the people saw around them, and which egyptian mythology identified as representing the various gods and goddesses, were merely other species of animals, and nothing more.

At the end of the first creation story the only being that was to be seen as truly divine was a spirit, and therefore invisible. He was also over and above all that he had created, and so could never be represented by an idol. He was to be acknowledged, but he could never be seen.

The second creation story separated mankind from all the other species of animals. The egyptian creation epic had lumped the creation of man with the creation of all the other animals on the last day of creation, followed by their being 'dumped' onto the earth. Genesis 2:4-25 emphasized that man (the real word for "adam") was to have a unique position. He was permitted to name all of the other species of animals, which was seen as having authority over them. He could converse directly with God, and have God converse directly with him, an ability that no other specie had. A special garden (The Garden of Eden) was created for him. Even his helpmate (Eve) was created in a unique manner.

He also had the ability to deliberately choose to commit acts which he knew to be evil. Unlike all of the other species yet today, mankind could identify certain acts as good, while other acts he could identify as evil. Furthermore, he could choose which route he would take as he journeyed through his life.

So the creation stories were never intended to be scientific theories. Instead, they were intended as a rebuttal and demythologization of a much earlier creation epic which the Hebrews had all learned during their time in Egypt.
 
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Observer

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I certainly believe in adaptation of a species, but not so much evolution in terms of an amoeba morphing into a fish or an ape becoming a human being. However I do not believe in young Earth, just can't. I often don't take these parts of the bible literally. I am more inclined to believe in old Earth creationism.
 
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Lopez 15721

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I am more geared towards believing in an old earth, In my findings i see that many CHristians believe in an old earth. How do i reconcile an old earth with creationism. I feel as though the earth being old supports evolution much more than creation
I'm not sure, statistically, if theistic evolution or even old earth creationism is more believed in Christianity than YEC or not. Though those who do support TE or OEC do so based on the evidence to support it. An old earth cannot be reconciled with a literal reading of creation in Genesis. It does support evolution. And it is through evolution that TEs believe God created.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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I know of 4 explanations of how we all got here.

1) Atheistic evolution - the big bang happened by itself. Matter decided to organize itself to produce life by sheer random chance. Rocks bang into trees, and a Mercedes Benz appears in the forest.

2) Theistic evolution - life did evolve, but not by random chance. God guided the process.

3) Old earth creation - it followed the Genesis account - God said let their be light, and light came to exist - but the time scale wasn't a literal 6 days of creation.

4) Young earth creation - God did it all in 6 days.
 
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Sayre

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I can assure you that a great deal of bible believing Christians follow the evidence to an old earth and evolution, and that it doesn't shake our faith in the slightest. The internet is a strange place - the people with the loudest voice are actually very poorly represented in the pews. That is, they might appear to make a lot of sound online, but they are not the majority.

How about this:

1 - evolution is a fact of the matter
2 - and old earth is a fact of the matter
3 - the resurrection of Christ is a fact of the matter

Putting 1, 2 and 3 together implies that there must be a way to reconcile the WAY God created with the biblical account of WHY God created.

For many of us, this isn't even an issue anymore. Most of my Christian friends simply assume that Christians are evolutionists. It ain't a big deal anymore.
 
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Soul2Soul

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I lost my faith in college and i have been wanting to return to the faith ever since which is why i am off and on on this forum.

I am more geared towards believing in an old earth, In my findings i see that many CHristians believe in an old earth. How do i reconcile an old earth with creationism. I feel as though the earth being old supports evolution much more than creation, As in, if the earth is old how is creation possible. DOes this mean that God created sea animals the first billion years and then all of a sudden create the land animals, then the 3rd billion year he made man? I kind of dont understand this. I found a nice website that i used to look at called...reason.org i believe (could be a diff website as ive looked at tons of them), and they believe in old earth creation. But to me it made no sense. THe website was great and everything i loved it, but up until they started saying they dont believe in evolution is when i was left wondering how is this possible.

Please help me reason. THank you for your time

I see evolution as a process employed by God during His creation of the world and it's contents. Realistically the approximate age of the earth as established by scientists should be fairly accurate - billions of years, not thousands of years. I would recommend reading or listening to the views of professor John Lennox and see what you make of his thoughts? :)
 
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dhh712

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I lost my faith in college and i have been wanting to return to the faith ever since which is why i am off and on on this forum.

I am more geared towards believing in an old earth, In my findings i see that many CHristians believe in an old earth. How do i reconcile an old earth with creationism. I feel as though the earth being old supports evolution much more than creation, As in, if the earth is old how is creation possible. DOes this mean that God created sea animals the first billion years and then all of a sudden create the land animals, then the 3rd billion year he made man? I kind of dont understand this. I found a nice website that i used to look at called...reason.org i believe (could be a diff website as ive looked at tons of them), and they believe in old earth creation. But to me it made no sense. THe website was great and everything i loved it, but up until they started saying they dont believe in evolution is when i was left wondering how is this possible.

Please help me reason. THank you for your time

I would ask you in whom do you place your trust? In God or in the world?

From my experience over the years, I feel an argument can be made for almost anything. I have not the time to discern through all the evidences. In pharmacy school, we had to read many studies of new drugs. You would not believe how practically impossible it was to find a study in which there were no biases. Practically everything is biased, and I'm not sure if I ever found a drug study which was completely unbiased. Evidences are founded upon such biases and then we wonder: have they come to a "true" evidence of something, or were they leaning upon their biases?

It is this more than anything that has convinced me there is no absolute Truth in the world outside of the Bible (or at least it put me far along the way in that understanding). Are you willing to base your immortal soul on these evidences claimed by the sciences? How much have you actually investigated into such theories? Do you have full and complete knowledge of the manner in which carbon dating is conducted and its results interpreted? Have you inspected such instruments yourself, or however the knowledge is obtained, and have complete and full understanding of the facts it produces?

Perhaps you've done this. Even so, are you not aware you are using circular reasoning to demonstrate facts from the world by using the world to produce these facts, the same way Christians use facts from the Bible to support their claims?

Personally, I do not see how the scientific theories--specifically those which state that the earth is billions of years old and this can be seen in the layers of the earth--give any proof whatsoever against how the Bible states God made the earth. I do not see any reason at all why He could not have created the earth to make it look like it is billions of years old and left such clues for us which the scientists have found so that there is all the more reason to glorify and praise Him for all His wonderful and amazing works.

If one does believe in creationism, then they believe that God created the first man and woman as adults. Could He not have done so with the earth?

Personally, I place my trust in God. I care not for what the earth tells me of it, though it can tell me wonderful things about God's creation and such discoveries of this should be used to glorify Him. Nevertheless I do not believe the earth contains anything which is absolute Truth. And by that I mean that which I trust in, believe in, and love; that which I honor, cherish, and give all of my devotion; that which can give comfort and hope; that which can satisfy when nothing else can. There is no Truth in the world. It is all biases built upon biases.
 
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~Anastasia~

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There are a lot of good points throughout this thread, and a lot of ideas on how creation may have happened.

I spent a lot of time investigating it and I found - simply that none of the ideas or models completely satisfied me from a scientific standpoint. They each contain good ideas, but there is also one or more irreconcilable problems in each of them for me. So I'm not coming down in support of any position. I'm much better able to point out the problems in them. But that won't help you.

I see your main question is how to reconcile old earth with Creation. There are several schools of thought that I'm aware of.

One involves some quantum theories that I'm not qualified to comment on. I reached this near the end of my investigation, and it has been updated. Much of my science background is in biology, not physics, so I'm not really equipped to evaluate it, but it did have some very interesting ideas.

Another involves the possibility that the "days" in Genesis are not literal days. Scripturally this can be supported as the word translated "day" is yowm or yom, which can be translated as "daylight hours" "day" or even "long period of time". In order to adhere to this one, one has to accept that some other source of light supported the plants (created on the third day) and the sun (created on the 4th day). However, God said in the very beginning "Let there be light" so we do know there IS another source of light. While it might not fit our understanding, our understanding is obviously limited, since we have no knowledge of such a powerful light source other than the sun/stars. However, in Revelation, it is stated that the New Jerusalem will have no need of the sun, since God Himself will be its light, so that is the most likely explanation I can see. (However, you still have to deal with "evening and morning were the first day" and so on, and that is harder to explain away.)

Some simply see Genesis as a metaphorical story. This easily makes everything fit, since you don't have to be literal. And it is not impossible that it would be so. The problem is that if you see Genesis as metaphorical, what else can you choose to be metaphorical, and how far will you take it? At some point it does create a problem for the faith, if for example you begin to believe that Christ Himself was a metaphor. (That doesn't make Genesis as a metaphor not true, it's just the concerns I've seen addressed by others over that position.) And personally, if Genesis IS a metaphor, I don't have a problem with that, but I still believe God Himself is responsible for creation, by whatever means.

One other position that comes to mind involves a creation prior to the one we know. This idea is generally presented with Gen. 1:2 and Gen. 1:28

Gen 1:2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

This can also reasonably be translated as "the earth became desolate, a ruin where nothing was left, and death/destruction was on the surface of the abyss/waters, and the Spirit of God brooded/moved above the surface of the waters"

This is often connected with God's instructions to the first man and woman after creating them.

Gen 1:28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

It has been noted that what is translated here as "fill the earth" is the word male' which can be translated "replenish", so that the first couple are told to "Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth."

These two verses are taken together to imply that while the earth had already been created, SOMETHING happened to destroy it, and it now needed to be re-filled, and God's intention was to do this with animals and people.

This does rather conveniently sidestep many of the issues that cause a problem with other models. It allows for old earth, and yet still Creation. I admit there is an appeal in this model for me as well, though I don't promote anything as truth (other than Scripture), only possibilities.

But a further reason this appeals to me is that in Job 38:4-7 we have an indication that angels were present when God formed the earth. Yet in the creation account, there is no mention of having created the angels. So it falls before the creation account, and yet is not explained anywhere in Scripture. Obviously Genesis does not include some things about creation and what does not pertain to us, so we can't know what may or may not have happened. (I used to think the angels were created along with the sun and moon, but in Job it says they sang and rejoiced when God laid the foundations of the earth, so ... I believe there is more evidence that they were created before the earth.)

I will say though, that after spending a LOT of time trying to sort this all out, it became less important to me. I realized we don't have to know, we just have to believe God.

In your case, if it gets in the way of believing God, then I understand the need to find a way to mentally reconcile things. If we simply push something to the back of our minds and pretend it's not there, it can erode our faith and on some level we know that we've been intellectually dishonest with ourselves. It is my firm belief that God can stand up to close scrutiny on our part, even if we can't find the answers, so I don't think it's wrong to encourage people to investigate anything they feel a need to investigate.

However ... I doubt you (no offense, or anyone else) can reach full 100% certainty and find all the answers, given what we know right now. But certainly investigate to the point that your doubts dictate.
 
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aiki

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I am more geared towards believing in an old earth, In my findings i see that many CHristians believe in an old earth.
As far as I aware, Adam and Eve were not created as infants who grew into adults. God created them as mature human beings. Why could He not have created a "mature" world as well?

How do i reconcile an old earth with creationism. I feel as though the earth being old supports evolution much more than creation,
Even if evolution were true (which it is obviously not), it would not disprove the existence of God. The TOE and God are not mutually exclusive things. The TOE tries to account for life on Earth naturalistically but it has nothing whatever to say to the question of why there is something rather than nothing. Why is there a universe? WHere did it come from? THese cosmological questions the Christian worldview answers very well - far better than naturalism does. And it does so by positing a transcendent, personal, timeless, powerful First Cause (aka God).

As in, if the earth is old how is creation possible. DOes this mean that God created sea animals the first billion years and then all of a sudden create the land animals, then the 3rd billion year he made man? I kind of dont understand this.
The account(s) of Creation in Genesis and the references to it in other places in the Bible do not indicate that the world was created over billions of years but in six, actual, 24-hour periods. How do we reconcile this with what evolution proposes? I don't think the place to start is by accepting wholesale everything the TOE declares and subjugating the Word of God to it.

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

I found a nice website that i used to look at called...reason.org i believe (could be a diff website as ive looked at tons of them), and they believe in old earth creation. But to me it made no sense. THe website was great and everything i loved it, but up until they started saying they dont believe in evolution is when i was left wondering how is this possible.
There are some serious problems with the TOE. Here's one to consider:

Speciation, natural selection, mutation - all of these typically involve a re-ordering and/or loss of genetic information. Molecules-to-man evolution requires the regular generation of completely new genetic information. And this information must arise with a degree of complexity and amount that has never been seen to occur in nature.

"If natural selection is the mechanism that explains the successive adaptations in the fish fin, for example, it must provide new genetic information. To produce the new bones in the fins requires an elaborate orchestration of biologic processes. The bones don’t just have to be present; they must develop at the right time in the embryo, have their shape and size predetermined by the DNA sequence, be attached to the correct tendons, ligaments, and blood vessels, attach to the bones of the pectoral girdle, and so on. The amount of information required for this seemingly simple transformation cannot be provided by a process that generally deletes information from the genome."

Selah.
 
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dcalling

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As some one else already pointed out, the 7 days of creation might not be actual days, but could mean 7 stages. Initially there is no sun revolving around earth, so how do you count a day? Also time is relative, so initially when the entire universe is just a point, time functions much differently.
 
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