Old earth age seen from the light travel time from the stars

[Quasar92]

Light-Travel Time: Evidence for an old earth:

One of the simplest arguments for an earth much older than a few thousand years comes from starlight. Light travels outward from its source at a large but finite rate - 186,000 miles per second, or about 6 trillion miles per year. In fact, astronomers define a distance unit, the light-year, as how far light travels in one year.

THE ARGUMENT

If the earth were only a few thousand years old, we would expect to see no objects more distant than a few thousand light-years away. But, as a matter of fact, we do see objects much further away than this. Most of the stars in our Milky Way galaxy are further, up to nearly 100,000 light-years away. The nearest large galaxy beyond our Milky Way is the Andromeda Galaxy, about 2 million light-years distant. The furthest galaxies we see are several billion light-years from us. And the most distant objects which we can observe, called quasars, range up to 10 billion light-years away (Pasachoff, 1989, chs 5 & 15). Thus the universe is most naturally understood to be greater than 10 billion years old.

This argument depends on several assumptions which we need to consider in order to have some feeling for how compelling the argument is. There are three such assumptions we should consider. Each is a very natural assumption, but it is possible that one or more of these is mistaken. Let us look at each in turn.

See the following to access the complete article: http://www.ibri.org/Tracts/lttmetct.htm

Equating the above factors to the Bible, there is credence to an unspecified amount of time between Gen.1:1-2 and verse 3 NIV: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

Unspecified time between verses 1 and 2 - and there is nothing more found in the following six day creation narrative revealing when the creation of the heavens and earth took place in verses 1-2 - [10 million years? 4 billion years? What difference does it make since God created it all, regardless of the time involved ? - and:

"God said, " let there be light"....day one of Gen.1:3. That is not all, the sun, moon and stars did not appear until on day 4: "And God said, 'Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night and let them serve as signs to mark the seasons and days and years...'"

From the above Scriptures it appears as though the earth was created before the sun, moon and the stars. Or are we unable to see the recovery from major cataclysmic events, with a restoration of the original , by clearing away the results of dense smoke from meteor strikes, enormous volcanic action and global flooding? The term "created" or "create" is not seen after Gen.1:1 again until the 5th and 6th days, when God created the fish and fowl on day 5 and the animals and Adam on the 6th day.

More evidence is found in Pr.8:23-24 NIV: "I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;" But you will recall in Gen.1:2, the earth was standing in the first global flood [Not the second flood of Noah]. Confirmed by David in Ps.24:2 and Peter in 2 Pet.3:5.

Therefore the evidence is strong that we live on a very old earth that could not possible be only 6,000 years old.


Quasar92

 

[timewerx]

THE ARGUMENT

If the earth were only a few thousand years old, we would expect to see no objects more distant than a few thousand light-years away. But, as a matter of fact, we do see objects much further away than this. Most of the stars in our Milky Way galaxy are further, up to nearly 100,000 light-years away. The nearest large galaxy beyond our Milky Way is the Andromeda Galaxy, about 2 million light-years distant. The furthest galaxies we see are several billion light-years from us. And the most distant objects which we can observe, called quasars, range up to 10 billion light-years away (Pasachoff, 1989, chs 5 & 15). Thus the universe is most naturally understood to be greater than 10 billion years old.

The argument only works if you assume everything in the Universe is created at roughly the same time.

Note, even if the farthest objects in the Universe are billions of years old and our Solar System only created a fraction of that time, we'll still be able to see their light.

I mean we people are mostly barely 100 years old and we can see light coming from objects more than thousands of light years away!

 

[-57]

Light-Travel Time: Evidence for an old earth:

One of the simplest arguments for an earth much older than a few thousand years comes from starlight. Light travels outward from its source at a large but finite rate - 186,000 miles per second, or about 6 trillion miles per year. In fact, astronomers define a distance unit, the light-year, as how far light travels in one year.

THE ARGUMENT

If the earth were only a few thousand years old, we would expect to see no objects more distant than a few thousand light-years away. But, as a matter of fact, we do see objects much further away than this. Most of the stars in our Milky Way galaxy are further, up to nearly 100,000 light-years away. The nearest large galaxy beyond our Milky Way is the Andromeda Galaxy, about 2 million light-years distant. The furthest galaxies we see are several billion light-years from us. And the most distant objects which we can observe, called quasars, range up to 10 billion light-years away (Pasachoff, 1989, chs 5 & 15). Thus the universe is most naturally understood to be greater than 10 billion years old.

This argument depends on several assumptions which we need to consider in order to have some feeling for how compelling the argument is. There are three such assumptions we should consider. Each is a very natural assumption, but it is possible that one or more of these is mistaken. Let us look at each in turn.

See the following to access the complete article: http://www.ibri.org/Tracts/lttmetct.htm

Equating the above factors to the Bible, there is credence to an unspecified amount of time between Gen.1:1-2 and verse 3 NIV: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

Unspecified time between verses 1 and 2 - and there is nothing more found in the following six day creation narrative revealing when the creation of the heavens and earth took place in verses 1-2 - [10 million years? 4 billion years? What difference does it make since God created it all, regardless of the time involved ? - and:

"God said, " let there be light"....day one of Gen.1:3. That is not all, the sun, moon and stars did not appear until on day 4: "And God said, 'Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night and let them serve as signs to mark the seasons and days and years...'"

From the above Scriptures it appears as though the earth was created before the sun, moon and the stars. Or are we unable to see the recovery from major cataclysmic events, with a restoration of the original , by clearing away the results of dense smoke from meteor strikes, enormous volcanic action and global flooding? The term "created" or "create" is not seen after Gen.1:1 again until the 5th and 6th days, when God created the fish and fowl on day 5 and the animals and Adam on the 6th day.

More evidence is found in Pr.8:23-24 NIV: "I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;" But you will recall in Gen.1:2, the earth was standing in the first global flood [Not the second flood of Noah]. Confirmed by David in Ps.24:2 and Peter in 2 Pet.3:5.

Therefore the evidence is strong that we live on a very old earth that could not possible be only 6,000 years old.


Quasar92

You haven't really done much research into this "argument"...have you?

Check this out. It shows how the earth can be young and the stuff way out in space can be old.

Concept, earth was in a strong gravitational field when God was spreading out the universe. Time wasn't ticking on earth but was in the distant parts of the universe.

I hope you find the link useful.

 

[HenryM]

There are many problems with this, first being that God repeated how He created the earth in His commandment in Exodus 20:8-11:

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

I'd say that God didn't use allegory in commandment, nor is masking some big untold truth about creation, since commandments, being legal, have to be as precise and non-metaphorical as possible.

So one has an option to take God's commandment as is given to him or her, or to pick and choose while siding with (mostly) godless scientists who are, supposedly, revealing the truth to us. It seems unlikely to me that God would leave people in the dark for basically 6000 years about the nature of creation, and then guide (mostly) atheist scientists to explain what the "truth" actually is.

And, not only does space discipline abound with what appear to be fraud upon fraud, while being mostly funded by governments, God advises us to "trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5).

Second among many problems with this is that creation account is one of the very few issues that has no seeming contradictions in the Bible (even the issue of salvation has seeming contradictions). That quality practically absolutely points to creation being as described in Genesis, in six literal days. It is easy to harmonize how sun and moon appear in 4th day. That doesn't change the big picture provided to us by God.

By the way, if creation is much older, that's not some heavy stuff to wrap mind around. People of any age could understand it just as easily as they understood Genesis account. There is no need for God to have it hidden for thousands of years.

 

[Saucy]

When God created the Heavens and the Earth, everything had the appearance of age. He didn't plant seeds in the ground and waited for them to grow. No, the fruit-producing trees were already of advanced age. Adam and Eve weren't formed as babies were they? No, they were full adults. The animals could reproduce. There were fish in the sea, etc.

The earth was created already inhabitable for mankind. Everything they needed to survive was at their disposal. The bible says the stars were were signs, to mark the seasons, for navigation, etc.

Now, a scientist only investigates naturalistic processes. They don't see God's fingerprints and think about Him when they try to date how long something might've taken to happen. If you put a modern scientist to investigate the freshly created Garden, he wouldn't take into account the fact that God just created it hours ago. He'd see the fully-grown trees and assume it took at least that long.

 

[1213]

Light-Travel Time: Evidence for an old earth:

One of the simplest arguments for an earth much older than a few thousand years comes from starlight. Light travels outward from its source at a large but finite rate - 186,000 miles per second, or about 6 trillion miles per year. In fact, astronomers define a distance unit, the light-year, as how far light travels in one year....

Unfortunately, there is no way to check is that true. And even if the max speed is known, we don’t know surely the distances.

However, if we believe the max speed matter and that universe is about 13.799 billion years, it would mean that universes maximum size at this moment is 13.799 billion lightyears, which would cause interesting dilemmas for people who actually think what the scientific claims mean.

 

[Quasar92]

The argument only works if you assume everything in the Universe is created at roughly the same time.

Note, even if the farthest objects in the Universe are billions of years old and our Solar System only created a fraction of that time, we'll still be able to see their light.

I mean we people are mostly barely 100 years old and we can see light coming from objects more than thousands of light years away!

IMO, if the Universe had been created all at the same time, such as a big bang, it would all be the same age, would it not?


Quasar92

 

[1stcenturylady]

The argument only works if you assume everything in the Universe is created at roughly the same time.

Note, even if the farthest objects in the Universe are billions of years old and our Solar System only created a fraction of that time, we'll still be able to see their light.

I mean we people are mostly barely 100 years old and we can see light coming from objects more than thousands of light years away!

"14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Therefore, on the fourth day God only made the sun and the moon. "He made the stars also" is just saying God is their creator also, not that they were created on that day.

 

[timewerx]

IMO, if the Universe had been created all at the same time, such as a big bang, it would all be the same age, would it not?


Quasar92

Only at the subatomic level. But if we go by that notion, it also means we ourselves are already billions of years old!

The accounts of creation did not begin with a completely empty space. There's already matter present before God created our space in the Universe. "God was hovering over the surface of waters", "The Earth was formless".

The Earth was already there..... Formless but it was there. It was probably just a cloud of dust in space, a nebula or part of a nebula in space before God created our Solar System.

Even water is abundant in outer space in the form of water vapor. As astronomy found out, they usually come out of giant black holes.

Before the Sun ignited, it would obviously be dark in the "proto- Solar System"

Scientific theories about the formation of our Solar System doesn't disagree with account of creation in Genesis if you look at it very carefully. It just doesn't include the entire Universe. The "hosts of stars" or the "hosts of heaven" are likened to be angels and their creation pre-dated our world. But they are likely to be celestial bodies (distant objects in the Universe) we now know as galaxies. Galaxies do host stars like a a vast army ready for battle.

 

[timewerx]

"14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Therefore, on the fourth day God only made the sun and the moon. "He made the stars also" is just saying God is their creator also, not that they were created on that day.

The statement isn't very accurate though. Do note the person who physically penned that passage doesn't have modern knowledge of science.

Stars aren't literally absolutely "lesser light" as they are also suns in their own right, some even much bigger, much heavier and much brighter than our own sun if to be viewed at the same distance.

 

[Job 33:6]

When God created the Heavens and the Earth, everything had the appearance of age. He didn't plant seeds in the ground and waited for them to grow. No, the fruit-producing trees were already of advanced age. Adam and Eve weren't formed as babies were they? No, they were full adults. The animals could reproduce. There were fish in the sea, etc.

The earth was created already inhabitable for mankind. Everything they needed to survive was at their disposal. The bible says the stars were were signs, to mark the seasons, for navigation, etc.

Now, a scientist only investigates naturalistic processes. They don't see God's fingerprints and think about Him when they try to date how long something might've taken to happen. If you put a modern scientist to investigate the freshly created Garden, he wouldn't take into account the fact that God just created it hours ago. He'd see the fully-grown trees and assume it took at least that long.

This is insulting. As a scientist, natural processes are more than natural when dictated by God.

The problem with this, is that, not only regarding Adam and Eve, but all of the universe and earth is created with the image of being old. To the extent that it would be deceptive of God, if the earth were actually young.

For example,

Lets say you have, and I used this example in another post just recently, lets say you have an offset angular unconformity. Which is to say, you have an old horizontal formation, and lets say, a younger vertical formation, side by side. And lets say within each formation, you have hundreds of layers, and within those layers you have things like, stream beds or meandering streams and you have foot tracks of living things that walked and lived their lives. And you have at the base, conglomerate of tumbled eroded stone. And breaks in the rock, formed by compressive force.

Something like this, is relatively common in the world. It simultaneously is something that, if it were not created instantaneously, it would have taken millions of years.

So, you are left with this question. Here is this story, this multi million year old story, in the rock. Does God want me to believe that this story unfolded in an instant? Or does God want me to understand the story as it appears, as He has created it to appear?

I guess anyone can believe whatever they want to believe. But for me, if I see a man who appears to be 90 years old, I am one to assume that he has actually lived 90 years, as opposed to the alternative, that God made the world yesterday, but just created it so that it looked as if, it were old, but actually is not.

It also makes you wonder, what if God made the world yesterday? But just made the world look as if it werent made yesterday. My car is parked in the garage. But what if i didnt actually park it there, and what if God created it, inside the garage and made it just look, as if it had been driven before.

 

[Job 33:6]

If we were to believe that everything was created just recently, but created in a way in which it looked much older....

Who is to say the world wasnt created yesterday? And just made to look as if it is old, but actually is not?

Our God is not a deceptive God.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The statement isn't very accurate though. Do note the person who physically penned that passage doesn't have modern knowledge of science.

Stars aren't literally absolutely "lesser light" as they are also suns in their own right, some even much bigger, much heavier and much brighter than our own sun if to be viewed at the same distance.

The passage is relative to earth. Thus the greater light is our sun, and the lesser light is our moon.

 

[timewerx]

The passage is relative to earth. Thus the greater light is our sun, and the lesser light is our moon.

Sorry I forgot about the moon.

I still find it implausible given the Genesis also gave a description of the "proto Solar System" having the properties of a gaseous and dusty nebula. A property that would not have existed in the absence of matter preceding it.

Presence of dust and heavy/radioactive elements especially indicates earlier generations of robust stellar activity - earlier generations of stars/solar systems that came before our current solar system.

 

[Quasar92]

"14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Therefore, on the fourth day God only made the sun and the moon. "He made the stars also" is just saying God is their creator also, not that they were created on that day.

According to the Scriptures: Gen.1:1: "In the beginning God CREATED the heavens and the earth. Then, IMO, there was chaos accounting for n undetermined period of time. In days two, three and four, God said "Let there be...' The word created was not used again after the first verse, until days five and six. which was, IMO, a restoration from the chaos between Gen.1:1 and 2. Theoretically, the chaos was the disobedience of Satan.


Quasar92

 

[HenryM]

To those who believe in "space, final frontier", including OP:

Not only is God's account of creation repeated in commandment (Exodus 20:11) which points to precise and literal nature of said account, as commandments are legal matters, but Bible is full of witnesses for immobile earth, with stars above the firmament/streched out vault, sun and moon beneath the firmament/streched out vault, even flat earth, while there are no witnesses for the opposite.

Fascinatingly, it's foolishness for the Greeks, just as Paul said 2000 years ago.

 

[Quasar92]

To those who believe in "space, final frontier", including OP:

Not only is God's account of creation repeated in commandment (Exodus 20:11) which points to precise and literal nature of said account, as commandments are legal matters, but Bible is full of witnesses for immobile earth, with stars above the firmament/streched out vault, sun and moon beneath the firmament/streched out vault, even flat earth, while there are no witnesses for the opposite.

Fascinatingly, it's foolishness for the Greeks, just as Paul said 2000 years ago.

That irrefutable proof has been found and documented of an old earth age, DOES NOT in any way change the fact that God created it. For those who may be interested, check out the following links.

Evidence for an old earth age:

One Creation, One Restoration and Two Global Floods in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Was There Life on earth BEFORE Adam ? in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Thompson Bert - The Bible and the Age of the Earth - Documents


Quasar92

 

[HenryM]

That irrefutable proof has been found and documented of an old earth age, DOES NOT in any way change the fact that God created it.

You don't address the problem with old earth and vastness of space and time - God's account of creation repeated in commandment. And that's just first among many problems.

"Irrefutable proof" that comes from (mostly) atheists, thousands of years after God gave us account of creation, might be deception which is part of preparation for final deception, talked about in 2 Thessalonians 2.

 

[Quasar92]

You don't address the problem with old earth and vastness of space and time - God's account of creation repeated in commandment. And that's just first among many problems.

"Irrefutable proof" that comes from (mostly) atheists, thousands of years after God gave us account of creation, might be deception which is part of preparation for final deception, talked about in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Questions you ask have been answered in the three links in my previous post. The six days of creation all followed the chaos between Gen.1:1 and 1:2.


Quasar92

 

[HenryM]

The six days of creation all followed the chaos between Gen.1:1 and 1:2.

As far as I am aware of, there is not one single witness in the Bible that describes chaos happening between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Which, by the way, sounds like it came from a masonic mouth. But if there is at least one, please provide it here.

In the meantime, since God put creation account in the commandment, there are witnesses to protect it, like this one: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20)

As for your links, you could paste a couple of key sentences and not just drop bunch of links and expect me, or others, to sift through them. I could do it, but your position is preposterous for me to investigate it without you first giving any line of reasoning for it.