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Old Covenant -- vs -- New Covenant - and the same moral law of God in both

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by BobRyan, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    As we all know - "old covenant" was given in fact to Adam as "Obey and Live"
    See Post: #122

    But when it comes to OT Israel at Sinai -- Paul says the "Gospel was preached to THEM (Israel at Sinai) - just as it was to US also " Heb 4:1

    Yet Sinai was not an "individual" covenant (and the New Covenant is) . In other words it is not as though there were 2 million sinless "individuals" at Sinai -- until they started worshiping the golden calf.

    Thus it is the NEW Covenant according to Paul - the Gospel that was being given all along - but at Sinai it was given with visual aids and illustrations.

    The national-covenant at Sinai is used as a "symbol" of the Old Covenant made with Adam "obey and live" because at the level of 'a nation' that is how it was framed. Only national apostasy / rebellion -- would break it. An individual who coveted on that day or any other -- would not break that covenant.

    The SAME moral Law (that includes the TEN Commandments) is in both the Old and and NEW Covenant as the Bible shows and as even
    The Baptist Confession of Faith,
    the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
    D.L. Moody,
    R.C Sproul,
    Matthew Henry,
    Thomas Watson -- freely demonstrate that they too can see this glaringly obvious Bible detail.

    I don't think that this particular post is "news" to very many people -- not even
    The Baptist Confession of Faith,
    the Westminster Confession of Faith

    Some will argue "The NEW Covenant was just made with the House of Israel according to the actual text - so it is not for Christians" -- those folks may be few and possibly confused so we will also address that in this thread.

    For quite some time now I have suspected that some of our non-Sabbath keeping friends were confused to the point of thinking that either I or Ellen White were the actual Bible writers - because when you quote the Bible to them the present strong opposition to the texts quoted "as if" I had written the Bible and they are merely "opposing me".

    Paul says the "Gospel was preached to THEM (Israel at Sinai) - just as it was to US also " Heb 4:1

    So when I say "Paul say" I am specifically "not" trying to get the reader to re-imagine to themselves "just Bob says".
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    the "Old Covenant" . Details matter.

    Ex. 34:23-27
    23 “Three times in the year all your men shall appear before the Lord, the Lord God of Israel. 24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.
    25 “You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leaven, nor shall the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover be left until morning.
    26 “The first of the firstfruits of your land you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
    27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

    The Old Covenant is a term unique to the NEW Testament and is never used in the Old Testament text. But it was an “agreement” made with the nation of Israel – not with an individual.

    The Old Covenant a type of the arrangement between God and lost humanity where the LAW of God condemns all mankind as sinners – see Romans 3:19-21

    Rom 3
    19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


    From; What was the Old Covenant?

    “In the Old Covenant, the Israelites were required to obey God and keep the Law, and in return He protected and blessed them”


    (Deuteronomy 30:15–18;

    15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess.

    1 Samuel 12:14–15).
    14 If you fear the Lord and serve Him and obey His voice, and do not rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then both you and the king who reigns over you will continue following the Lord your God. 15 However, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord, but rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then the hand of the Lord will be against you, as it was against your fathers.

    The national covenant was broken by Israel -

    “The Old Covenant established our guilt before God and our need for a Savior. The Old Covenant was never intended to save us;”


    The National Covenant was written by Moses at God’s Command and is made with Israel as a nation

    The Covenant was written by the hand of God 40 days later – The Ten Commandments are moral law for all mankind. But as long as they are only external on tablets of stone and not on the tablets of the human heart – they condemn all mankind as sinners. Rom 3:19-20


    Ex. 34:

    23 “Three times in the year all your men shall appear before the Lord, the Lord God of Israel. 24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.
    25 “You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leaven, nor shall the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover be left until morning.
    26 “The first of the firstfruits of your land you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
    27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”


    Forty days later – we have God writing the Ten Commandments


    28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (God) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

    A FEW examples of Commands in both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant – the moral law of God

    Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
    Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
    Ex 20:7 "Do not take God's name in vain"
    Ex 20:12 "Honor your parents"
     
  3. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Quote the gospel from the Old Testament. How far back can you go?
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Genesis 3

    And Paul says "THE Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
    John 8: 56
    Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
    1 Peter 1: 10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed
     
  5. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    ROFL

    I said OLD Testament, silly! Quote the gospel from the Old Testament
     
  6. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Quote the gospel from the NT
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Genesis 3

    And Paul says "THE Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
    John 8: 56
    Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
    1 Peter 1: 10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed

    Because... ??

    Isaiah 53 is not the Gospel in your view - and so Paul should be ignored??? really??
     
  8. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    ROFL Hi Touchy!

    Look, you are the one quoting Paul about Abraham receiving the gospel. I agree. But what was the gospel given to Abraham. Can you quote it from the OT? I'm not questioning that it happened. I want to know if you know what it was. I doubt it, but lets see.
     
  9. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Hebrews speaks concerning the covenant of the Levitical priesthood, which Christ affirms
    Mt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

    As for the Sinai covenant.... Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not party to that covenant.
    De 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
    De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
     
  10. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Correct, the 'old covenant' was not made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, for God has never entered into such a statment like this with them:

    Exodus 19:1 KJB - In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

    Exodus 19:2 KJB - For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.

    Exodus 19:3 KJB - And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

    Exodus 19:4 KJB - Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

    Exodus 19:5 KJB - Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

    Exodus 19:6 KJB - And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

    Exodus 19:7 KJB - And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.

    Exodus 19:8 KJB - And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.​

    and in so citing, notice that the Ten Commandments are not the 'old covenant'. The 'old covenant' was the agreement entered into by the peoples with God in how they were to keep God's "My covenant" [aka "His covenant"], in other words a covenant about how to keep an already existing and eternal covenant:

    Exodus 19:5 KJB - Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

    Exodus 19:8 KJB - "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do."​

    3 days before they even heard the Ten Commandments out loud by God's voice. You will not find that God entered into such agreement anywhere with Abraham, Isaac or Jacob. Yet they all had the Ten Commandments:

    [see Exodus 19:3-8 KJB, for the 'old covenant' is never, in all of scripture [KJB], the Ten Commandments [the perfect, righteousness, spiritual, holy, just and good and eternal Law of God; Psalms 19:7; Romans 9:31; Romans 7:14; James 1:25; Psalms 119:44-45; Romans 7:12; Psalms 89:34; Exodus 20:1-17, especially Exodus 20:8, “holy”, see Isaiah 58:13; 2 Peter 3:2 KJB], but was always the faulty promises of the peoples Israel after the flesh, made in agreement to do all that the LORD says. They failed. Why? Works and no Faith [Romans 9:32 KJB]. They [in general] attempted without God's strength [Revelation 12:10-12; Romans 5:6; 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJB], and though they were free physically, they were still slaves spiritually, that is of the heart and mind: 'all that the LORD hath said we will do', their faulty promises, and yet they did not, for they sinned by the golden calf.

    The Everlasting Covenant [New, which existed before the 'old', even from eternity, for the Father and Son clasped hands in agreement, the Holy Ghost as Witness, should [when] sin [the mystery of iniquity] arise, they would work out the plan of Redemption, thus it is “the everlasting covenant” or the covenant of life and peace, or the counsel of peace, ratified by the blood of the Son of God Himself and by the Father in Heaven, see Psalms 89:3,28,34, 105:8; Isaiah 13:12, 42:6; Malachi 2:5 [Jesus is the True Levi, meaning attached unto His Father], 3:1; John 19:30 [he finished laying the foundation, the words were unto His Father], 17:24 [the agreement in eternity past was made, Jesus kept His word, performed His vows, and now the promise from the Father was to be fulfilled]; John 3:16; John 19:28; Hebrews 13:20; Revelation 13:8; Psalms 40:7-8; Hebrews 10:7-9; Psalms 116:14-18; Ezekiel 38:23; John 17:19; John 10:18; 8:28; Psalms 110:4; Zechariah 6:13, etc., etc. for surely as the Rainbow is above God's throne, so the covenant between Father and Son, witnessed by the Holy Ghost, is eternal, KJB] is God's, I will ...”, His Promise; more on this in detail later, as needed. The 'old covenant' is not the same as God's 'my covenant', which we establish by Faith [Romans 3:31 KJB]. They are two things, not one, which will be demonstrated in thorough detail later, as needed. God's Ten Commandments are all perfect promises, without fault, more on this later, as needed.]​

    The Sabbath of the LORD thy God was not just for the "Jews" - [Link], see also in another area of the forums [Link].

    See 1 Corinthians 10 KJB. They had the same Rock, the same Jesus, see Acts 7:45,55,59; Hebrews 4:8 KJB, as Jesus was in the cloud/fire that led them, see Joshua 5 KJB, etc]], the same salvation by faith [looking forward, see John 8:56 KJB], the same everlasting Gospel, see Hebrews 4:2; Galatians 3:8 KJB, etc.

    Abraham, the friend of God [2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23 KJB; just as Moses was [Exodus 33:11 KJB], just as the disciples were; [John 14:15, 15:14,15]] had the Ten Commandments, spoken to Him by God, by very voice:

    Genesis 26:5 KJB - Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.​

    The same thing that was basically said to Moses but in the negative:

    Exodus 16:28 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?​

    But notice that Abraham was to teach his children those Ten Commandments, etc:

    Genesis 18:19 KJB - For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.​

    Which went with the Everlasting Gospel [Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:16; Revelation 14:6 KJB, etc] itself:

    Genesis 18:18 KJB - Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?​

    Thus Abraham taught his children, and their children as it was written of him. Who was his child and his children, and their children, etc?

    Isaac.

    Isaac begat Esau and Jacob.

    Jacob is Israel.

    Israel begat the 12 tribes, of whom was Joseph.

    Joseph went down into Egypt, likewsie the brethren and father Jacob.

    After a new pharaoh arose, and Joseph was forgotten, the people turned aside from obedience to God, fell into the bondage of sin/slavery and forgot to "remember" the Sabbath. Which is why God asked the question:

    Exodus 16:28 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?​

    Moses was a Sabbath reformer - [Link]
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  11. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If the book of the Law was not the words of the covenant given at Sinai which contained the 10 commandments which were never given to any other nation or people Deut 5, how could you possibly tell us that the 10 commandments are eternal and not part of the Sinai covenant? Why would angels need the adultery command? Why would they need the command to remind them of Israel's up and coming flight out of Egypt. Why would they need to be reminded to honor their fathers and mothers, they were created. They didn't come from the womb. Why would they need to have verse 21 “Do not want to have your neighbor’s wife. Do not desire anything your neighbor owns. Do not desire to have your neighbor’s house or land, male or female servant, ox or donkey.” Do angels have wives or servants? And then you have the gull to tell us in other posts those 10 commandments are the "character of God"????? OY!

    I sure don't know how you could write that the 10 are perfect promises. How could commands morph into promises? Sounds like some more garbage from the revered prophet. How about getting real friend. The only promise God made was "IF" you keep the covenant which contained the 10 commandments He would make them a great nation and a Holy people. As we can plainly see the ten commandments became the ministry of death to them.

     
  12. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Ex 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
    8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
    9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
    10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

    Exodus 19:5 KJB - Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

    Exodus 19:8 KJB - "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do."[/quote]​
    Ex 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
    8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
    De 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
    20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
    21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
    No, the circumcision was the issue....................
    Ex 1:16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
    17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.


    The covenant made with their fathers was male circumcision in the foreskin of flesh....
    It concerns Gods faithfulness, Gods righteousness.
    Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

    Ge 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
    Ge 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
    Ge 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

    The covenant which brought them out from slavery...
    Ex 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
    Ex 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
    Ex 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

    Again the covenant God remembers
    Lev 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
    45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

    Ge 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
    Ge 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
    Ge 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

    Being born again is circumcision of the heart.............
    We are all Children of promise to Abraham..............
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    In chapter 7.


    Christ did not say that priests engage in farming or house building on Sabbath.. only in the Gospel ministry given them by God. Just as they did at Sinai standing before God Himself.

    details matter.


    They were going into Canaan to cast out the Canaanites - Abraham was not.

    But it was a sin for Abraham to take God's name in vain.. and also for Israel to do it.

    Details matter.

    Genesis 26:5 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

    And that includes "do not take God's name in vain"
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Quote me... not you when you want to argue that I have said something.

    The TEN Commandments are in both covenants. I never say they were not written on stone at Sinai... and we both know it.

    Obviously.

    So then it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain. And we both know it.

    Nonesensical nonsense in your posts usually deleted in my response.. but that one was too instructive for the unbiased objective readers so all can see what you are doing.
     
  15. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Yeah like the detail that their ministerial duties defiled the Sabbath.


    Yeah like this detail.
    Ga 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    The covenant concerned the fourth generation. Which excluded Isaac and Jacob and the generation which went into Egypt.
    The covenant made in Genesis 15 says......
    Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

    Ex 1:6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
     
  16. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Bob Ryan took snippets out of my post #131 and made my post into something unrecognizable. Nice try Bob, but if the reader will read my complete post you will find out the real truth about the SDA statement that the 10 commandments are the "character" of God.

    You will find out that the 10 commandments are not eternal rules. Heaven was sinless until lucifer rebelled against God. The 9 commandments were given to Israel to point out their sins. In heaven Angels were created, they didn't come from the womb. There was no adultery to point out in Heaven. No need for an eternal law of 10 commandments. Until lucifer sinned and his sin was self exaltation of himself, the 10 would not have covered that sin anyway.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    So then the pastor "works" at his "occupation" on Sabbath - and the Sabbath commands us to cease from work -

    And attend "holy convocation" Lev 23:3

    Which the Pastor has a primary role in - "in his job".

    Just as the priests did at the foot of Sinai - approved of it - in the direct presence of God.

    Details matter.

    Context matters.

    Context matters no matter how often it is ignored.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Those at the foot of Sinai were the descendants of Isaac.. not Ishmael.
    As the Gal 4 text says - Sinai is being used "figuratively" not literally.

    Details matter.

    The Jews of Paul's day were in rebellion against the Law of God and the giver of that Law.

    Context matters.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Quote me... not you when you want to argue that I have said something.

    The TEN Commandments are in both covenants. I never say they were not written on stone at Sinai... and we both know it.

    Obviously.

    So then it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain. And we both know it.

    Nonesensical nonsense in your posts usually deleted in my response.. but that one was too instructive for the unbiased objective readers so all can see what you are doing.

    hint: Sin "is transgression of the law". Heaven was not "worshipping false Gods but sinless since there was no law". And we all know it.

    details matter.
     
  20. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    You didn't get the context of two covenants.
     
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