Old Catholics

[FaithfulPilgrim]

I read up on on the stickied Old Catholic thread, and while I am aware of some of their stances, I still have questions.

1.) What is the Old Catholic stance on doctrines such as purgatory and praying to saints? Do they differ from what the RCC teaches in any way?

2.) How do they differ from Anglo-Catholics?

 

[Albion]

If by Old Catholics you mean the Union of Utrecht, they remain very much like Roman Catholics except for the Papacy and women priests. I believe that they accept both Purgatory and praying to saints. There is no church body in the USA that is a member of the UofU, although the Polish National Catholic Church formerly was.

But the term is also applied (by themselves mainly) to scads of tiny splinter denominations that generally keep on with Roman ceremonials but whose beliefs vary widely. Their lines of Apostolic Succession are not recognized by the UofU.

None has much connection to Anglo-Catholics except for some accidental similarities and an intercommunion agreement between the Anglican Communion and the Union of Utrecht dating back to the 1930s.

 

[FireDragon76]

I read up on on the stickied Old Catholic thread, and while I am aware of some of their stances, I still have questions.

1.) What is the Old Catholic stance on doctrines such as purgatory and praying to saints? Do they differ from what the RCC teaches in any way?

They believe in praying for the dead and the intercession of saints as consistent with the catholic faith.

They don't teach the condignity of merits and the theology of Trent: they were influenced by Jansenism (which was similar to Calvinism in tone, but later declared a heresy). They also reject the Immaculate Conception as a dogmatic teaching.

Otherwise they are alot like Roman Catholics, except they are more liberal. In fact that's the main reason that the Old Catholics split from Rome, modernist theologians in Germany disagreed with Vatican I and they saw papal infallibility as fundamentally changing the faith and also limiting the ability of theologians to engage with modern questions.

Alot of "Old Catholic" groups, like Albion said, are not actually affiliated with the Union of Utrecht.

Here's the founding document for the Union of Utrecht, stating their main confessional differences with Rome:

Declaration of Utrecht - Wikisource, the free online library

 

[Shane R]

The Union of Scranton is the main presence in the States (and its primary body, the Polish National Catholic Church). Many within the Continuum view union with the PNCC as the next logical step in ecumenical progress. And I think that is workable and even desirable.

Then, there are a number of sketchy 'Old Catholic' groups. They are one of the main culprits for creating episcopi vagantes. I hate that term, but it is an apt description of the likes of Rutherford 'Cardinal' Johnson and a few others. Those groups lack for real congregations and are predatory toward clergy that they think might actually be able to bring real people into their little cliques.

 

[Arcangl86]

The Union of Scranton is the main presence in the States (and its primary body, the Polish National Catholic Church). Many within the Continuum view union with the PNCC as the next logical step in ecumenical progress. And I think that is workable and even desirable.

Then, there are a number of sketchy 'Old Catholic' groups. They are one of the main culprits for creating episcopi vagantes. I hate that term, but it is an apt description of the likes of Rutherford 'Cardinal' Johnson and a few others. Those groups lack for real congregations and are predatory toward clergy that they think might actually be able to bring real people into their little cliques.

It's worth pointing out that the Union of Scranton isn't in communion with Utrecht, even though the PNCC used to be a member of the Union of Utrecht.

 

[Athanasius377]

The Union of Scranton is the main presence in the States (and its primary body, the Polish National Catholic Church). Many within the Continuum view union with the PNCC as the next logical step in ecumenical progress. And I think that is workable and even desirable.

Then, there are a number of sketchy 'Old Catholic' groups. They are one of the main culprits for creating episcopi vagantes. I hate that term, but it is an apt description of the likes of Rutherford 'Cardinal' Johnson and a few others. Those groups lack for real congregations and are predatory toward clergy that they think might actually be able to bring real people into their little cliques.

I used to attend an ACC church and was aware of some of the quackiness that derived from Old Catholic groups but Rutherford "Cardinal" Johnson wins the internet for today. The best part is I got a good laugh this early. The bad is that I think I burnt my nose from the coffee I had just sipped when I read his web page.

 

[Athanasius377]

I used to attend an ACC church and was aware of some of the quackiness that derived from Old Catholic groups but Rutherford "Cardinal" Johnson wins the internet for today. The best part is I got a good laugh this early. The bad is that I think I burnt my nose from the coffee I had just sipped when I read his web page.

One more thing, I think he has amassed a fortune in vestments. I am positive that man owns more vestments than the clergy in my entire diocese.

 

[FireDragon76]

There's lots of colorful characters among "Old Catholics".