Okay, Jesus died for our sins. What does that even mean?

[friend of]

On His Son?

Who became as sin for us.

 

[Not David]

Who became as sin for us.

That means as God, he became the lowest. Plus, the Father and the Son are always in Communion

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Who became as sin for us.

That makes no sense since sin is not a person. It is a concept, an offense. Jesus cannot become an abstraction.

 

[coffee4u]

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
This isn't saying Jesus became a sinner but became the sin-bearer.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
This isn't saying Jesus became a sinner but became the sin-bearer.

Thank you. That is clearer language.

But I still have a problem with the just suffering punishment in place of the unjust.

And when we look at th eparable of the prodigal son, not only did the father not punish the other son, he didn't even punish the prodigal son. So why is crucifixion necessary. i think we need to consider some of the other theories of besides penal substitution.

My thanks to those who listed them.

 

[coffee4u]

Because God is Holy and sin can't dwell with him or remain in his presence. Unlike God, the father in the parable was a sinner just like we all are, so the interactions between him and his (also sinful) son's were different.
As to why crucifixion was necessary, we are told only sinless blood can cleanse away sins. Why, I can't say. I know blood symbolises life and that sinless blood was needed.

Often in the Old Testament, we see blood being used to symbolise what Jesus would do.
In the garden of Eden God killed and covered Adam and Eve with animal skins.
Then when Mosses was dealing with Pharaoh, God's people had to kill a lamb and put the blood on the doorframe of the house.
It all pointed to the death of Jesus even if they weren't aware of it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

He was punishing Sin.

We don't like to accept this, but it is true. God killed His own Son so that we do not have to bear the penalty for our sin. Right from the time of Adam when God killed the first animal (there was no death before the fall) to clothe Adam and Eve with animal skins - which was the first blood sacrifice - and the millions of animals killed as sacrifices for the sins of the people of Israel, death was an integral component of redemption. The animals were killed by the priests and their blood sprinkled on the Mercy Seat once a year to atone for the people's sin.

But Jesus was not killed by the Jews or the Romans. God killed him. Jesus (being God) willed His own heart to explode. Jesus had to died exactly at 3pm, because that was when all the passover lambs were to be killed. He was nailed to the cross at 12 noon, and it took three hours for him to receive the full wrath of God and pay the penalty for the sin of all who were and are to be converted.

The presence of God was at the crucifixion, but to judge, not to comfort. Jesus said, "My God, My God why have you forsaken me", because He no longer sensed the comforting presence of His Father for the first time in eternity. He was being judged for the sin of all the elect of God. It took just three hours for him to satisfy the eternal wrath of God and the penalty for sin for millions of souls. A condemned person being subject to the wrath of God for all of eternity would never have satisfied it, yet Jesus, being an eternal Person, satisfied it in three hours, and cried out, "It is accomplished, finished", and then He gave up His own life and His spirit went to the Father.

So, it was Jesus Himself who was condemned and punished for sin, and He bore it for three hours, and then the full atonement for our sin was totally completed, and we are totally free from the guilt, shame, and penalty of sin through our faith in Christ alone.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thank you. That is clearer language.

But I still have a problem with the just suffering punishment in place of the unjust.

And when we look at th eparable of the prodigal son, not only did the father not punish the other son, he didn't even punish the prodigal son. So why is crucifixion necessary. i think we need to consider some of the other theories of besides penal substitution.

My thanks to those who listed them.

The Scripture says that the wages of sin is death, and that the soul that sins it shall surely die. God told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would die. They hid from God because they thought that God would kill them on the spot. Instead, God killed an innocent animal and clothed them with the skin. This was symbolic of the blood sacrifice. The innocent animal had to be sacrificed through death so that Adam and Even could be clothed. Where there is sin, someone has to die. In this case it was an innocent animal that saved Adam and Eve from an eternal hell, but they needed to continue offering sacrifices each year to keep them atoned.

Jesus was totally innocent. The people knew it, the Jewish leaders knew it, Pilate knew it, and the Centurion and the soldiers who crucified Him knew it. The only person who could atone for the sins of all those who were to be converted, along with the Old Testament ones who went the way of Abel instead of Cain, had to be an eternal Person, because only He could bear the eternal wrath of God for the sins of millions of souls, who otherwise would have had to bear it for the rest of eternity.

When you think about that it makes us realise that Jesus, although totally human, was also divine and eternal. He had to be fully human to be the perfect sacrifice, and had to be divine and eternal to be able to bear such an eternal weight of the wrath of God for sin. No wonder that it causes us to look on Jesus in wonder and amazement and just praise and glorify God that He loved us so much that He would put His own Son through such a thing!

 

[timothyu]

He was punishing Sin.

Wasn't removing us from the tree of life and quarantining us in this world to reap what we sow as a result of our self serving behaviour, not a punishment?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Jesus had to died exactly at 3pm, because that was when all the passover lambs were to be killed.

Weren't they killed the day before Passover so they could be eaten at the last supper?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Weren't they killed the day before Passover so they could be eaten at the last supper?

The last supper wasn't the passover meal. Thursday night was the night before the preparation day for the passover sabbath which was on the Saturday. The right time for all the passover lambs to be killed was at 3pm on the preparation day, then the meal was prepared on the Friday before sunset, because no work like preparing meals was to be done on the Sabbath. Then on the Passover Sabbath, the passover meal was eaten.

This is why the arrest, crucifixion, and death of Jesus was timetabled right down to the last second. God was in total control of the events. Jesus' death had to happen at 3pm, exactly the time the passover lambs were killed, because He was the real Passover Lamb, and He had to die at exactly the same time.

 

[friend of]

It is a concept, an offense. Jesus cannot become an abstraction.

Well, evidently we can kill an abstraction. Scripture tells us that the last enemy to be destroyed (killed) is death itself

 

[timothyu]

Well, evidently we can kill an abstraction. Scripture tells us that the last enemy to be destroyed (killed) is death itself

Windows 7 users would be happy to hear that.

 

[coffee4u]

*Clings onto Windows 7 for as long as possible*

 

[timothyu]

*Clings onto Windows 7 for as long as possible*

Word is the final few months of updates may purposely kill off 7 forcing an upgrade to Big Brother. Welcome to the end of days.

 

[Noxot]

Well, evidently we can kill an abstraction. Scripture tells us that the last enemy to be destroyed (killed) is death itself

Death is a spiritual reality. If there is no death then there would be no separation from God.

 

[timothyu]

Death is a spiritual reality. If there is no death then there would be no separation from God.

Why did God separate us from the tree of life when we sinned?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Weren't they killed the day before Passover so they could be eaten at the last supper?

The last supper was Thursday night before Jesus was arrested. He died at 3pm on the Friday, at the exact time when the Passover lambs were to be killed according to Jewish custom.

 

[Noxot]

Why did God separate us from the tree of life when we sinned?

Because sin separates us from God. Therefore in our perception God removed us from the Tree of Life. But the Book of Revelation says that the gates of the New Jerusalem are always open.

 

[timothyu]

Because sin separates us from God. Therefore in our perception God removed us from the Tree of Life. But the Book of Revelation says that the gates of the New Jerusalem are always open.

But why did God separate us from the tree of life when we sinned?