"Okay, I believe in a higher power(s) now...."

[InterestedAtheist]

Personal conviction is not "no basis". It is inadequate to oblige another to agree.

A personal conviction is certainly a basis for the person experiencing it to convert to a religion; but it is no basis for any other person who has not experienced it.
You may say that you have a personal conviction that Christianity is true, and I am happy to take your word for it. But that is no basis for anyone else to believe in Christianity, lacking your experience.

No one is going to "jump" to Christianity unless they are willing to, that would require dissatisfaction with their existing world view on their part.

Of course. But leaving one worldview is not the same thing as joining another. Both @cvanwey and I have declared that we are dissatisfied with being atheists (for the purposes of this discussion, as an intellectual exercise). We are now both convinced that there is a god of some sort. But Christianity is not the default option for non-atheism. There are literally thousands of gods we could believe in. We are waiting for evidence - in the form of rational argument, as per the intentions of this forum - that the god that exists is the Christian God that you believe in.

Fallacious reasoning according to who? According to what standard?

According to its own standards. If a line of argument can be followed to mutually exclusive conclusions, then it invalidates itself.
To take an example: "I have a personal conviction that the Christian religion is true," says a Christian.
"Well, I have a personal conviction that Islam is true," says a Muslim.
We can therefore see that "personal conviction" may be a valid justification for religious belief in the person having it (this is in fact a debatable point, but we'll leave that for another thread) but is certainly not valid for persuading others.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

They both can be right.

Sorry. According to Christianity, they can't. There is one God only, Christians say.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Here is some 'proof' 3 Evidences That Confirm the Bible Is Not Made Up if this helps.

Thank you. That's exactly what we're looking for. Let's examine them.
First: the Bible is unique in content.
Agreed, by definition. Every book is unique in content. And every religion is unique in its teachings, although some may be more or less similar to others. What does this prove?

Second: the Bible is confirmed by archaeology.
Let's accept for the moment that everything the article says is true. What does it prove? That the stories in the Bible were based on real events. That King David, Pontius Pilate and Paul the Apostel were all real people. Okay. If you say so. But the fact that David lived doesn't prove that miracles happened in his time. If it has been proved that the Israelites were slaves in Egypyt, that says nothing about whether the sky rained frogs, or that Moses actually did part the Read Sea. And if Pontius Pilate has been proved to be a real person, that does not mean that a man he sentenced to death came back to life three days later.

Third: the Bible foretells the future by its fulfilled prophecies
Answers in Genesis certainly thinks this is an important piece of evidence. It talks at length about how Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies that were made in the Bible, and what incredible proof of God it is (never mind the fact that at least two of the prophecies - that the messiah would be born of a virgin and rise from the dead - are miracles in themselves).
But there's some things I need to check. First of all, let's assume that all of the things the article calls prophecies actually are prophecies. You may be aware that this is a matter of considerable debate. But let's accept, for the sake of this discussion, that they are.

How do we know they were fulfilled? Who says that they came to pass?
Answer: the writers of the Bible. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All of whom wrote - even at the most conservative estimate - decades after the death of Jesus.

So, what we have as this proof of the Bible's divine status, is prophecies made centuries earlier; and then we have Jesus' life; and then, decades after Jesus' death four books are written which allege that Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies. How do we know? Because stories about Jesus confirm this. And what stories are these? In the Bible. Written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and nobody else.

So the proof that prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus is that Jesus' followers wrote stories saying they were. And I'm afraid that's not very convincing.

 

[coffee4u]

But we're not asking for proof. We're well aware that, in science, nothing can be "proven," only in mathematics. All we're asking for is convincing evidence.
Remember, we are in the Christian Apologetics Forum. Here, you are expected to use rational discussion and arguments to make your case. As it says in MUST READ: Christian Apologetics Statement of Purpose :
"Christian Apologetics is a branch of theology that concerns itself with the rational defense of the Christian faith against arguments and opposing viewpoints. The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs."

What the Christian God wants is not relevant until we have evidence that He exists. Please remember, in this thread @cvanwey and I have accepted that a god of some kind exists, but we are waiting for reasons to think that it is the Christian God.
Look at it from our point of view. There are thousands of gods throughout history. Literally, thousands. So, now that I have accepted that one of them is real, I need some way to distinguish between the many which are not true and the single one that is true.
So, how do we choose? All of their followers say that their god or gods are the real ones. They can't all be right, as just about all religions claim to be the one true religion, and all others false.
You say that Christianity is about a relationship with God. But what if other religions say the same thing? Muslims do, for example. So how do I know that your religion, Christianity, is the true one?
You are in the debating forum. What reasoned evidence have you?

Good points. I will admit I hadn't noticed what area the thread was in -I do that sometimes when I click new posts.
I did edit and leave a link to some proofs a few minutes later, did you see that? The prophecies of Jesus from the Old Testament being fulfilled in the New are always uplifting to me.

No other religion will ask repentance, none other has a saviour, none other has the Holy Spirit to help you. Christianity is different from any other.
Take for example the golden rule. You can find this in other places far away from Christianity. Confucius had a golden rule "Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself" Which is about personal happiness and living in peace with others. Then compare it to Christ's golden rule "Do to others as you would have them do to you". Do you notice the contrast? Confucius is "don't do" which is a passive action while Jesus' is an active "do". It's not enough to simply not do something, you have to actually do something. This is one of the fundamental difference with Christianity, we are called to do, to reach out, it's not all about self. Some people say that Jesus ripped off Confucius, no he was quoting from the Old Testament Leviticus 19:18 which states, "Love your neighbour as yourself." The book of Leviticus was written in the 1400's BC, making it almost 1,000 years older than its Buddhist, Hindu, Greek, or Confucianist counterparts.

The Bible tells us that God created the heavenly host first then the world. The heavenly hosts were angels who did and do God's bidding. The Bible also explains that a third rebelled and fell including Satan and that these angels are what we call demons. Demons will pretend to be gods to lead people astray and that this is where all other religions come from.
In many other religions, you will find incantations, rituals or amulets which is said to give a person protection from spirits/the dead or in contrast, they may even call to spirits/the dead. In the Bible this is condemned because God knows that the only spirits to answer will be a demon masquerading as a benevolent spirit animals/angel/dead person.

3 ways Christianity is different from other religions

Edit: I see that you did see the link. The point being anything pretty much can be taken more than one way. This is also why I said there is no ultimate proof. If you choose to not believe then you won't.
God says first you must come in faith and believe that he is and second you must diligently seek him because to the natural man it is foolishness. Those were the verses I put in my last post. If you plan to wait until you get some rock-solid proof you won't get it. If there was, we wouldn't need faith.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The prophecies of Jesus from the Old Testament being fulfilled in the New are always uplifting to me.

False prophets were to be put to death (Deuteronomy 18:15-22). If a prophet was to be put to death for his prophecy being false, then it follows that the expectation was that his prophecy would come true within his lifetime. Because the prophets of the Old Testament were long dead when Jesus Christ was born, it follows that no prophecy applies to him.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

God says first you must come in faith and believe that he is and second you must diligently seek him because to the natural man it is foolishness. Those were the verses I put in my last post. If you plan to wait until you get some rock-solid proof you won't get it. If there was, we wouldn't need faith.

That's a problem, then. Because as a theist who believes that a god of some sort created the universe, but has no idea which one it was, I am faced with thousands of possible gods to believe in. Which one shall I choose? It could be the Christian God. It could be the Muslim God. It could be the ancient Roman or Celtic or Norse pantheons. Who knows? How can I tell?
You shouldn't speak of waiting for rock-solid proof. I've already said my bar isn't that high. But a clear indication, backed up by evidence of good quality, is what I need. The article you presented promises that clear evidence - "Surely, even the most ardent skeptic will have a difficult time believing that the entire Bible was just made up since many of its details are corroborated by archaeology and in other historical writings," it says.
But in fact, when I read the article, none of the three proofs were very convincing at all. You say that "anything can be taken more than one way." But that's not true. If an article can be taken more than one way, with no particular indication as to which way it leads, then it is of no use.

I am here looking for evidence that the Christian God is true.

 

[MrsFoundit]

I'll lower the criteria even further, just for you... Can you demonstrate His mere existence in general? I can't seem to find Him. And I looked pretty hard, for over 30 years. If you can, please kindly demonstrate accordingly? See below...

cvanwey said: "Which means I have conceded all arguments for God(s) general existence. Now all theists have left to do, presumably, is to demonstrate the Bible specifically.", quoted from the OP.

 

[MrsFoundit]

You shouldn't speak of waiting for rock-solid proof. I've already said my bar isn't that high. But a clear indication, backed up by evidence of good quality, is what I need. .

You are already a theist, your specifications for evidence are already not those of a skeptic or atheist.

 

[MrsFoundit]

If a prophet was to be put to death for his prophecy being false, then it follows that the expectation was that his prophecy would come true within his lifetime.

If a prophecy is false it does not come true.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

You are already a theist, your specifications for evidence are already not those of a skeptic or atheist.

Theist or atheist, I still require evidence before I come to a conclusion.
I came to the conclusion that a god of some sort exists based upon the evidence of the Cosmological, Teleological, Moral and Fine-Tuning arguments. I now require evidence as to which of the thousands of gods known to humanity is the real deal. You and I both agree that only one religion can be true. I came to Christian Forums to see if they could supply convincing evidence that it is their God who is real one.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Negative.

1. You either provide the evidence, whatever evidence you deem fit, necessary to demonstrate your God is real, while the others are mistaken?

Or...

2. You reconcile that it all boils down to faith, and faith alone. Which essentially means that anyone can assert their God is real; just the same as you, with the same amount of 'validation'.

Let me know?

This is a false dichotomy, and it is lacking a workable definition of "evidence" and "faith". As I said, too many assumptions here for a comprehensible point.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Theist or atheist, I still require evidence before I come to a conclusion.

Then state what evidence you have discovered for the theism please.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Huh? My only point here was that just because we want something to be true, no closer validates it as being actually true, without proper justification.

Evidence for your claim that people of faith believe anything just because they want it to be true please ? All people of faith, or in general, not a few anecdotal example please.

Can you provide proper justification for your claim that "we" need to know what is true? Include a definition of "know" and "true", or your response will be simply deemed inadequate.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Sorry. According to Christianity, they can't. There is one God only, Christians say.

Everyone who posts in here is not a Christian.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Then state what evidence you have discovered for the theism please.

Alright. The cosmological argument. How could the universe have come about by itself?
The teleological argument. The fact that we are complex beings argues for a designer.
The fine-tuning argument. Did you know that it is almost impossible for our planet to exist in such a way that life can exist on it?
All three of these argue that some divine being must have created the universe. But I don't know which one.

So, since I a now a theist, I am looking for evidence as to which god is real. I came here looking for evidence that it is the Christian God. Do you have any such evidence?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Everyone who posts in here is not a Christian.

Well, if a muslim would like to come by and make the case for Allah, I'd be happy to listen to it. I don't think that's allowed on this forum, though.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Alright. The cosmological argument. How could the universe have come about by itself?
The teleological argument. The fact that we are complex beings argues for a designer.
The fine-tuning argument. Did you know that it is almost impossible for our planet to exist in such a way that life can exist on it?
All three of these argue that some divine being must have created the universe. But I don't know which one.

So, since I a now a theist, I am looking for evidence as to which god is real. I came here looking for evidence that it is the Christian God. Do you have any such evidence?

How did you apply your requirements for evidence to these arguments?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

How did you apply your requirements for evidence to these arguments?

Perhaps I should remind you at this point that I'm not really a theist. This is just a hypothetical, an intellectual exercise. We're just assuming that I have accepted that a higher power of some sort exists.
So when you ask me, what was it that convinced me to become a theist, I can't really answer, because nothing did. I suppose I could roleplay being one for you, but what would be the point?
The point of this thread is to ask you for evidence that it is the Christian God.

By the way, you haven't yet answered my earlier posts. Are you now ready to accept that personal conviction is not a sound argument for Christianity?

 

[coffee4u]

False prophets were to be put to death (Deuteronomy 18:15-22). If a prophet was to be put to death for his prophecy being false, then it follows that the expectation was that his prophecy would come true within his lifetime. Because the prophets of the Old Testament were long dead when Jesus Christ was born, it follows that no prophecy applies to him.

Completely wrong.
Apart from the fact that the first prophecy is spoken by God the Father in Genesis.

Perhaps I should remind you at this point that I'm not really a theist. This is just a a hypothetical, an intellectual exercise. We're just assuming that I have accepted that a higher power of some sort exists.
So when you ask me, what was it that convinced me to become a theist, I can't really answer, because nothing did. I suppose I could roleplay being one for you, but what would be the point?
The point of this thread is to ask you for evidence that it is the Christian God.

By the way, you haven't yet answered my earlier posts. Are you now ready to accept that personal conviction is not a sound argument for Christianity?

In that case, this is rather pointless.

And no we don't accept it. Personal testimony is used in a court of law. When a parent says they love their child we normally believe them.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

In that case, this is rather pointless.

The point is to see what convincing arguments Christians can give for the existence of the Christian God. It is the very reason this forum exists.
Put it another way: do you believe that you are a Christian for good and sound reasons?
If yes, then what are they?
If no, then why are you a Christian at all?

And no we don't accept it. Personal testimony is used in a court of law. When a parent says they love their child we normally believe them.

Would you believe them, though, if you had personal knowledge that this parent customarily beat their child, was on record as saying they hated the child, and the child was seeking protective custody from the parent? Would their personal testimony carry weight in the case of such opposing evidence?

And then again, supposing the parent said "I love my child. He is a special gift to me from the fairies. He was born out of a sunflower. I saw it happen."
Would this personal testimony impress you?

Now, supposing I hear two personal testimonies of a relationship with God. One is from a Christian saying that they feel God's presence. Another is from a Muslim, saying they can feel Allah's presence. Each person tells me that they are right, and the other person is wrong. How am I to decide which one is true - or indeed, if either of them are?