OK, now should I be worried?

NothingIsImpossible

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Some people are beyond stubborn. Including my dad. He literately has almost worked him self to death. After years of telling him he needed to go out on disability, he finally did. Only because the company happen to be closing. Because of his stubbornness to avoid the doc, to work hard, to ignore rules (that protect his body) hes had endless health issues. Hes got calcium (bone) spikes growing off his bones. Hes got tons of metal implant in his body. Neck, arm, leg, hip, chest...surgeries. His work was limited as it was. Now the doc says they have to work on more of his spine but odds are he will be stuck in a wheel chair forever if they do. Its so frustrating because he could have avoided all this.

This is why with my wife I can be VERY pushy about her health and hard work ethic. Its fine to want to work hard, but if you work yourself into a grave and your only 30, that means I am a widow early on. Work but remember you have a spouse that wants to grow old with you. A few weeks ago I got so frustrated with her about a serious problem with her teeth (that can kill you if untreated) that I said something along the lines of "Just go back to your country if you don't want to take care of yourself and die." Obviously she forgave me for that but stubborn people are so hard to deal with.

You both are still in my prayers! Though I often forget who to pray for. >.<
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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98cwitr

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PROGRESS REPORT

I was able to explain things in a way my husband could understand. He kept getting bogged down in discussing each individual incident, and he didn't see why I was upset to a degree that looked to him like it was way out of proportion. So what; he had a memory lapse. Isn't he allowed to be human? I put it in his language: money. I explained to him that it would be like me asking him for twenty dollars. Not an unreasonable amount each individual time, but if I started asking him for twenty dollars every day, it would add up. Then he could see the pattern.

I'm not the one who's been pushing him to work a ton of overtime. He's bringing that on himself. My frustration is that first it was supposed to be until the new class of trainees graduated, and then he said it was until the end of summer. When summer is over, what will be his deadline then? What excuse will he use to keep on breaking his neck? I say it's by God's design he didn't get any overtime today.

Earlier today, wanting to fold laundry, I had trouble getting up out of my chair. He went to help me, and I noticed *he* had difficulty standing up. He has back trouble too. When I pointed that out, he said something about working through the pain, just ignoring it and doing what needs to be done. Mind you, he won't allow *me* to do that, but *he* will, until the cows come home. After we folded the laundry, it became clear that every molecule in his body was exhausted. He just had to take a nap. And he apologized to me for it! Now, let me get this straight. He works himself so weary that he can't process a word I say, and then he apologizes for needing a nap? I told him he has no reason to be sorry. A nap is exactly the healthy choice to make.

When he woke up, we had this conversation:
"Thank God you were off today. You needed the rest."
"I see where you're coming from, but I've got debts to pay off."
"And if you work yourself into the ground, who's going to pay off those debts?"
He shrugs. "I've got insurance."
"I'd rather keep you healthy, and stay in debt a little while longer."
"I'm glad you care."

Yeah, but what do you want to bet he won't heed it, and he'll just go right back to overtiming himself to death?


Being a man, I can completely see his view. He feels obligated and assumes his role in the marriage, as a husband, is to work his butt off. I completely agree with him, and think you both are handling things far better (not great, but better) than a lot of other couples would. If he is going to bust his butt regardless, and given both of your conditions, are there any free resources you can leverage to get more done? I look forward to many years of child labor once we have kids ;) Chores chores chores :)

Gotta run...going to unload 2 yards of mulch into a tree bed in 100 degree weather.

No rest for the wicked I tell myself!
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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I see and appreciate the light-heartedness there, alongside the seriousness. Fact is, no matter how much the rest of us knock ourselves out too, and stretch ourselves beyond our limits, he can STILL think of something that he needs to do, and only he can do it.

He's a male version of Martha, I guess, (Luke 10:38-42) and he needs to be more of a Mary, because last Sunday he actually had to leave church early to go work some more overtime. Precisely because of how exhausted and in pain he was yesterday, I'm starting to worry he'll work himself sick again, like he did last year. There are always going to be bills to pay and chores to do. So, I'm praying for another way to deal with this.
 
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98cwitr

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Mulching complete! Could have used another 1/2 yard but dadgum if that wasn't a task that can really wear someone out! Whew!

My wife, who is only 30, has 7 herniated discs in her lower back. She had spinal surgery 10 years ago when she only had 3 discs herniated, and as a decade past 4 more began to go. We don't have any children yet and both want them. Last time we went to unload the same amount of mulch, I asked her is she thought she was up for just spreading the mulch with a yard rake. She seemed hesitant but agreed. We got the job done, but at the end we were both dead tired; my back hurt and I KNEW her back hurt. The next 3 days she showed signs of the effects that I felt partial responsible for. I told for the next tree bed, it was on me. We are preparing for another surgery in a few months...hopefully to bide us enough strength to start a family and enable her to survive a pregnancy. Maybe your husband, assuming the role as "a man must be strong for his family" and knowing your condition, heaps it upon himself to avoid you having to feel the same pain he is in? If that's true, even partially, then I know your desire to take some of his pain away too. The last thing a man wants to hear, especially men like your husband and me, is that we are not strong enough to care for our families and do the things that need to be done. It sounds like you two are despite need for a vacation. If you two have similar interests, and the finances to cover a trip (however small) it could be worth it in the end IF he doesn't stress even more returning home. My wife loves the beach, and when on a rare occasion we have extra funds, I like taking her...even though the beach really isn't my thing. I simply sit under an umbrella and have a beer while she could stay out there for hours roasting herself.

I see a lot of concern in your posts, but I see even more love between you two. It's really inspiring actually. There is no need to worry...worrying will not solve anything. Gain understanding about how he views himself as a husband and how that view of himself in y'alls marriage affects him. Continue to pray for your husband, your marriage, and look after yourself as well. You cannot help if you're health also turns for the worse. My prayers are with you too! :pray:
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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Thank you for the support.

Let me answer some questions that haven't been asked yet, in case anyone is wondering.

How does his overwork tie in to the problem of him not retaining information, that I started this thread over? Because there are three possible explanations for him forgetting everything I told him within five minutes or less.
1.) It's an underlying medical problem, which we are going to have checked out.
2.) He deliberately tunes me out because he thinks I'm chattering on about nothing worth listening to.
3.) He's so exhausted that by the time he comes home, he's used up, and there's nothing left of him.

When I started this thread, I was pretty certain the issue was #1. I've been assured emphatically that #2 is not the case. Good, because that would just NOT be acceptable to me. Then Friday happened, and now I'm thinking it's more likely to be #3 than it is #1. But even #3 definitely needs to be addressed. I can understand working six days a week. I cannot understand working seven, especially if he has to leave church early to do that. As it is, not only is he gone when he's away at work, but if he's drained and empty to that degree, I don't even have a complete husband when he's home.

We last zipped away for a long weekend on my birthday, in late June. He'll probably take some time off when his mother comes to visit, in late August. I don't know what he's going to do in the meantime, but I do know this: It will be whatever he wants to do, regardless of anything I say.

Oh, and why am I talking behind his back in this thread instead of telling him directly?
1.) Because when I try to tell him directly, he doesn't hear me, and so
2.) This thread is a way to get it all vented without harping at him.
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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I asked Hubby to come with me to my next therapy session. Unfortunately, he says eight days of notice isn't enough time to get the day off work. I need professional guidance in making it clear to him that even when someone has a diagnosed depressive illness, they can still have emotions sometimes. I can be sad or angry or anything else, sometimes, and it isn't necessarily a symptom. In fact, the worst thing he can do is automatically dismiss my emotions and attribute it to mental illness.

Once before, in a session where he sat in with me, I was crying, and he basically freaked out. He's looking at the therapist all wide-eyed, "See? This is how she gets. Doesn't she need to be hospitalized or something? I mean, she's having a breakdown right here in front of you. Isn't she?" My therapist had to tell him it's OK for me to do that. People cry in his office all the time, and it's not a big alarming deal. Hubby freely admits he can't tell the difference between somebody merely being upset, and somebody having a psychiatric crisis. They look the same to him.

The only thing he's gotten out of the last couple of days is that I'm depressed. He can't see where he's contributing in any way. It's all me, and only me, and there's nothing about him that he could stand to change. And oh, am I getting sick of that game. The way things are right now, I am afraid to speak up when something bothers me, because he'll only accuse me of trying to pick a fight. I am afraid to express any emotion at all, because he'll blame it on mental illness instead of even entertaining the possibility there could be a legitimate reason for it. I'm sitting here like a rock. The house is graveyard quiet. We have barely said two words to each other all evening, and he doesn't see anything troubling about that? To heck with this. If I'm going to be with somebody who makes me feel like I'm alone, I might as well be alone.

Since he can't make it to my session, I wanted to see about meeting with our pastor or a deacon instead. He didn't want to bother. He wanted me to just go ahead and tell him what I had to say. That wasn't easy for me to do, without backup, but I tried. I pointed out that conflict is going to happen between any two people now and then, and how is it going to get resolved without discussing it? In the end he agreed to stop saying at the very first sign of emotional upset, "I can't handle you when you're like this." I tried to illustrate where that's blaming it all on me, and only makes me feel worse, while if he says, "I can't handle this," that's more neutral. It allows for the possibility that it could be his issue too, not only mine. Would you believe, he can't hear the difference between the two statements? To him, it's just eliminating four of the words, that's all, with no real change in meaning.
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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Next progress report:

An uneasy truce. We're not fighting, but we're not talking about much of anything, except surface stuff. How was your day, how are the vegetables growing, how many frogs live in the greenhouse now, what would you like to eat for dinner, thank kind of thing. As long as I'm not complaining about anything or outwardly showing signs of being upset, I believe Hubby thinks there's no problem, and everything is OK. But there is a problem, everything is not OK, and I can't discuss it with him. He won't understand. And, frustratingly, that pretty much IS the problem. To put it simply, I can't discuss with him the fact that I can't discuss things with him.

He didn't get any overtime on Sunday either, just as he hadn't gotten any last Friday. I've been praying so hard about it. Could be God is answering. Maybe the available overtime is finally starting to dry up, like he told me it was going to do several weeks ago.

Today I discovered the word "stonewalling." I might have heard it before, in terms of relationships, but I sat up and took notice this time. Boy, does it describe things! Hubby admits he is conflict-avoidant. Things get the least bit unpleasant, he simply will not talk about it. He goes completely turtle on me. This article has a lot of helpful information in it, and reminds me that the worst thing I can do when he shuts down, is press the issue. You can't coax a turtle out of its shell by poking at it with a stick.

As noted before, Hubby himself suspects he's on the autism spectrum. Both of us have PTSD. And I wouldn't be surprised if he has Avoidant Personality Disorder too. I have some of those traits myself. The challenge is, how can we resolve a conflict if we can't talk about it? I have lived too much of my life under the philosophy of pretending a problem doesn't exist, hoping that if you ignore it long enough, it will go away.

And that thing about automatically chalking it up to mental illness any time I show any emotion whatsoever, that's got to stop. Yes, I have depression and PTSD. But I'm not the only one here with issues, and I'm getting tired of being treated like it's all me, and only me.
 
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Mudinyeri

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You can both use your "conditions" as excuses or you can set ground rules for conflict and deal with it.

Here are a few suggestions for ground rules:
1. Never say "never" or "always"
2. Leave the past in the past
3. Discuss the issue(s) not the individual(s)
4. Don't bring up a problem without a potential solution; don't lay the solution on the other person's shoulders
5. Don't make excuses; own your behavior and admit that you have control over it
6. Be the bigger person; put others' needs in front of your own
7. Approach conflict mirroring the behavior of Christ
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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Thank you for the suggestions. They will most likely have to be implemented under professional guidance. The original topic of this thread being that my husband tends not to hear a word I say, I've found that this can be worked around if I say it in the office of a therapist who is also saying the same thing. When it comes from a therapist, and/or from a pastor or deacon at our church, he tends to pay more attention. It has just now occurred to me that even if he can't make it to my upcoming appointment, which is next Monday, he may be able to make it to the one after that, if it's set up far enough in advance.

Psychiatric illnesses (which are medical conditions) are challenges to deal with. They are obstacles to steer around or climb over, but they are probably not going to be made to go away completely. They are not carte-blanche excuses. When I'm not doing well, it's up to me to manage my symptoms. Not him. I think he has trouble understanding that. He may feel it's his responsibility to "make" his wife happy under his own power, and obviously he can't, so he could feel like he's failing as a husband. Which causes him to shut down and go turtle, which.... endless vicious cycle.

As for leaving the past in the past, I agree it's not helpful to bring up old problems that have already been solved and apologized for. However, sometimes the past can serve as a backdrop and explain things. For example, early in our marriage, Hubby assumed certain behaviors were going to be true of me because they were true of his first wife. Not necessarily. Just because she may have acted this way or that way, it doesn't follow from there that "this is how women are." SHE ran late all the time. I don't. She's in his past, yes, but knowing about how she often goofed around and caused him to miss planes, or be charged an extra day at the motel because she wasn't ready to check out on time, helps explain why he was nervous and uptight at first when traveling with me. Now that he knows I'm not going to cause that problem, that it was only her and not all women, he's more relaxed and confident when we travel.

Interestingly, in reading up about this problem, I've encountered an old thread on another website, started by a woman with PTSD. What she said made me really appreciate my husband. While this definitely sounds like something my ex would have done, it doesn't describe Hubby at all. Part of PTSD is an extremely exaggerated startle reflex. Sometimes Hubby will enter the room unexpectedly, and I'll jump like a bomb just went off. (And no, that is NOT something I "have control over.") He doesn't completely understand. "It's just me." And I tell him, "Yes, I know. I couldn't help that, and neither can you. It isn't your fault." But this woman.... knowing that she had PTSD, with the resulting startle reflex from you-know-where, her husband made a game of deliberately sneaking up behind her and scaring her. He thought it was hilarious when she screamed and cried and possibly even wet her pants. (Whereupon he'd laugh at her and tell everybody they knew.) I can't quote what other respondents in that thread were calling him, but I think I agree. I'm glad Hubby doesn't treat me that way.
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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We're going stargazing tonight. Driving out of the city, where it's nice and dark and peaceful, and just seeing if we can see any shooting stars. Happens every year around this time. I think we need the destressing. Leaving in about an hour. Both of us are looking forward to it very much.

We take pillows and blankets, and get into the back of his pickup truck and rest our heads on the lowered tailgate. Then we can look directly up at the stars. I have trouble climbing in, but we've got it down to a science. He sits on the tailgate to get it closer to the ground, and then I use a stepladder to make it easier. After I'm settled in, he comes in beside me.

We actually went camping for several nights last year, traveling first to Nevada and then to Montana and back home. We had a mattress in the back. At night we put our luggage in the front and slept at truck stops, which is allowed because he's a commercial driver. Amazingly comfortable, even though it's only a twin mattress and we're both big people.
 
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Two things to do: One...your husband has a CDL and is required to have physicals to retain it. SO...a couple of days before his next physical, call his doctor and ask that he administer those basic five item/five task memory tests. It will either help your husband to see that there IS a problem, or you to see that, thus far, the problem is not "organic" but situational. TWO: Your husband has a CDL, as does mine. As different places require different rules, check yours...I can say with a 100% certainty that because of the danger of fatigued driving, he has restrictions on how many hours he can work without taking days off. if his company requires him to exceed these, he should find somewhere else to work.

THIRDLY: Driver fatigue is serious and real. I know when my own husband (who has never, ever exceeded his driving or on-duty time) has had a harder day than usual (rain, ice, extra heat, mechanical problems, construction, stops off the normal route, or leaving late/early) he gets very not-there...we can have a conversation, he putting in all the normal bits, and a couple of days or hours later not remember it at all. It caused me lots of internal rage at first because he would say, in aggrieved tones "You never told me...." and, of course, once I told him details about it, he'd remember...but not happily. I next got the blame for not writing it down. Now, part of the issue was "YOU..." as in YOU never told me, or YOU weren't paying attention...We've agreed it's much, much less stressful for him to say "I'm sorry, I don't remember that" and "I know you told me, but I can't remember that" and for me to say "I'm sorry, but I still need ________, do you have time to get it from the attic now?" Which generally produces a contrite "I'm so sorry! I forgot" Then my turn is "I know you had a hard trip/you're extra tired...thank you for helping out". Which day of the week is the worst, bar none? The day he finishes his work week, because drivers very often plan their off days (off in the sense of paid work) with the around-the-house work they need to do during the days off....and if a tired guy forgets a chore or an errand or an appointment because he's been mapping his time off according to his internal list, there gets to be resentment because the plans he's been mapping out mean that your item is an intrusion....and gets resented and often forgotten...honestly forgotten...as the tape with the strongest signal is the one that got replayed for all those hours driving...his way of how the work goes. Just hearing someone asking about something once and answering them really, really does not always mean there is retention. I've learned to be extra careful on those tired days. Can you easily spot a pattern after X hours or X days on duty? That may also help.
 
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Thank you very much, ex-pat, for the insight. It helps a lot.

Guess what. After telling me I hadn't given him enough notice to get the day off and be able to go to my session with me today, he ended up calling in sick anyway. Of course, he still couldn't go with me, because he was sick.... We're both diabetic. It could have been a blood sugar thing. It was a headache that got better as the day went on. Or he's slowly working himself sick again, like he did last year.

So he told me this morning that he needs two weeks of notice to be able to put in for the day off. I scheduled the next one for fifteen days away. Let's see what excuse he makes then, because I have a hunch he *really* doesn't want to go.
 
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We have just had such a major breakthrough.

Established: Hubby cannot discern tone of voice, and suspects he is on the autism spectrum.

Just learned: It turns out he has a hard time picking up nonverbal cues of any kind. He can't easily read body language, facial expression, or anything like that. Someone would have to be actually crying or yelling or throwing things before he realizes they're feeling an emotion. He wasn't ignoring it. He just couldn't read it. Subtleties are absolutely lost on him. It would make sense, then, that he wouldn't understand I'm upset, until I'm *very* upset. It would also make sense that when my efforts to communicate before it gets to that point just fly right past him, it can be extremely frustrating.

Tonight we had a discussion. First I made it clear that I'm not trying to have a fight. I'm just trying to explain and understand. Then I talked about how words have subtle meanings and suggestions. That was like a foreign language to him, and he obviously had no idea what I meant. As far as he's concerned, unless he comes right out and says the words, "I think you're stupid," then anybody who believes he may have implied such a thing is just plain wrong.

So I illustrated. I told him about how, in my first marriage, my ex and I would watch a game show on TV. If I called out the correct answer before the contestant did.... Here, I imitated my ex's incredulous facial expression and surprised tone of voice, with emphasis on the word "you," and I explained that this happened pretty much every time. "How do YOU know that?" My question for Hubby: "What was my ex suggesting?" Hubby was baffled. Stuck for an answer. Then I turned to our 19-year-old honorary granddaughter and repeated the question. She got it right away. "Well, he obviously didn't expect you to know the answers, and he was implying you're stupid."

That opened Hubby eyes. Now he knows, if I take offense to something that was implied, I am not "putting words in his mouth," or "making false accusations" or "imagining things." Not if other people can see it too. Next step, I drew a parallel between that and being color-blind. A guy who can't see the color red might have on one bluish sock and one purplish sock, without realizing it. Then if somebody tells him, "Hey, man, you've got two different color socks on," he'll be like, "What are you talking about? They look the same to me."

It's exactly the same with my husband. He's verbally color-blind.

"Well, don't get mad at me if I can't pick up on it."
"OK, and don't get mad at me when I do."
"You'll have to remind me."
"Deal."

Oh, and he's going to the appointment with me. He hadn't actually said he would, before, but now he has told me he's not happy about it, but he'll go. I believe him. He keeps his promises.
 
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Mudinyeri

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As far as he's concerned, unless he comes right out and says the words, "I think you're stupid," then anybody who believes he may have implied such a thing is just plain wrong.

I think we've come back around to a post of mine in one of your earlier threads. My wife and I struggle with the same thing. She believes that she has interpreted what I meant when I said, "Xxxx yyyy." I meant nothing of the sort. It's called transference. She redirected her feelings onto what I said.

My office manager (a woman) and I joke about this. She'll say, "You called me a [female dog]." I'll reply, "No, I didn't. I merely said that we need to treat customers nicely." It's become a running joke between us.

If you care to read about transference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference

It is quite common to transfer feelings for parents, ex spouses, etc. onto current friends, partners and the like. Your behavior is a classic example. You even reference your ex in your example above.
 
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Great breakthrough! If you can remember to say "The words you just used make me feel as if you are calling me stupid" (and not "Are you calling me stupid??" ) you give him a chance to change his words...which may not happen if he's too tired. (Another help here: Could we talk about finances or are you feeling too tired right now? ) You may also wish to join a forum for people who have spouses on the spectrum...it may give you some strategies and also give you a place to vent where people understand you. Undiagnosed problems are super hard to deal with. :( Prayers for you all!
 
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Mudinyeri

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Great breakthrough! If you can remember to say "The words you just used make me feel as if you are calling me stupid"

A good start. I'd get rid of the "make me" part of that sentence, though. Perhaps something less prejudicial like, "Could you explain what you mean, please?" The reason is that his words are not making her feel a certain way, her transference is redirecting her pre-existing feelings onto him.
 
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LovebirdsFlying

My husband drew this cartoon of me.
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I haven't read the link yet, but my initial question is, is transference the same as projection? I'll find out when I read it. The point I'm making, though, is that if other people see it that way too, then it's not just my imagination, is it?

I agree on the "make me" part. Maybe if I said, "I took from that...." or "I got the impression...." That puts it on me instead of sounding like I'm blaming him.

Which is another thing we talked about. "I" versus "you." Most people on this planet are more emotional than Hubby is, and that's not because everybody else in the world is freaking out and being erratic and needs a doctor. It's because he is emotionally flat. But, because we all tend to set ourselves as the standard, from his point of view it looks like the other person is having a hissy fit. Evidence, they're more emotional than he would have been in that situation. So, I show emotion to any degree whatsoever, and his immediate response is to turtle. "I can't handle you when you're like this," he says. I'm not being "like" anything that's unusual. It's just plain normal human emotion he "can't handle," and my psychologist says so too. What's interesting is that he *meant* that as an I-statement. He meant the focus to be on "I can't handle." But I couldn't hear that because the word "you" is in there twice, essentially blaming me. My response is going to be to defend myself, because I'm not doing anything wrong and I have a right to my emotions, and off we are to the races. We did agree that he can say, "I can't handle this," but he doesn't understand how that sounds any different, because he can't pick up subtleties. From now on, though, even if he does revert to "I can't handle you when you're like this," I can remember that he isn't trying to blame me or tell me I'm wrong to show feelings, and he does *intend* it as an I-statement. So, I can mentally translate it to what he means instead of what he said, and we can be OK.
 
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