Ok - is abortion a sin? POLL

[GodLovesCats]

Which means you are not talking about the same thing I am. Respond to my specific arguments about an abortion performed to save the mother's life, which has nothing to do with convenience or a desire to just not have a baby.

 

[SPF]

Which means you are not talking about the same thing I am. Respond to my specific arguments about an abortion performed to save the mother's life, which has nothing to do with convenience or a desire to just not have a baby.

If your argument is that it's not immoral to have an abortion due to a life threatening medical emergency, then we are probably on the same page.

I believe that all human beings, from fertilization possess inherent moral worth and value.

Therefore, when dealing with a life threatening situation, I think the doctor should look at both the mother and the unborn child as his patients. The goal of the doctor should be to save both lives. But there are situations in which the doctor simply cannot save both lives. In those tragic situations, I think it's up to the doctor to make the best decision he can with regards to who he can save, and usually it's going to be straight forward.

I say straight forward becomes it really comes down to whether or not the unborn child has reached the age of viability or not. If the child is viable, then there is a good chance he can save both. If the child has not reached viability, then there is a real chance that he will be able to only save the mother. Those cases, albeit rare, do happen, and are tragic.

Personally, I don't think that the term abortion should even be used in these circumstances due to the loaded nature of the term abortion. There is a very big difference between a doctor saying to his patient:

"I'm really sorry, but due to complications in your pregnancy if I don't act, both you and your child are going to die. There is a good chance that I will only be able to save one of you, but I need to act or else you will both die."

Compare that to the mother saying to the doctor:

"I'm pregnant and have decided that I don't want to have this baby. I'm healthy, my baby is healthy, but I just don't want to be a mother, so please kill the baby"

I would contend that the abortions for non-medical reasons are immoral.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Well, of course the mother would not say she does not want the baby if it is done for a medical reason. It is likely she does want the babyand tries to save it as long as possible. I agree if she just does not want a baby, an abortion would be immoral. Where we disagree is how important the mother's life and health for nine months (and often beyond) are.

Vitality is a gray area. One common reason women choose to end their pregnancies early is knowing that their babies will be born with severe and permanent disabiilties, which I do not support, but if a preemie - a baby who is born after less than 37 weeks of gestation - can only survive on machines and tubes at the hospital and/or is likely to die shortly after birth, I would not qualfy that as vitality worth saving the fetus for. That is just my opinion though and I respect anyone who chooses to take that risk.

 

[SPF]

Where we disagree is how important the mother's life and health for nine months (and often beyond) are.

How is it that we disagree? Where have I ever indicated in anything I've written that the mother's life is not equally inherently valuable as the unborn? You'll need to quote me. And viability is currently around 24 weeks, earliest being 21 weeks from what I recall.

 

[GodLovesCats]

How is it that we disagree? Where have I ever indicated in anything I've written that the mother's life is not equally inherently valuable as the unborn? You'll need to quote me. And viability is currently around 24 weeks, earliest being 21 weeks from what I recall.

Actually I was referring to her quality of life going down and potential health issues, not whether she lives or dies. The whole discussion about rape cases demonstrated you care less about the mother, considering her to be less important than the baby she is carrying because she should be forced to put up with it all 9 months.

 

[SPF]

Actually I was referring to her quality of life going down and potential health issues, not whether she lives or dies. The whole discussion about rape cases demonstrated you care less about the mother, considering her to be less important than the baby she is carrying because she should be forced to put up with it all 9 months.

Actually it doesn’t. I wish you could listen to yourself. You’re comparing a woman having to “put up with it all to 9 months” as an equal comparison to the alternative which is literally killing an innocent human being and depriving them of the entirety of their life.

I care equally about their life. I think they are both equally created in the image of God. I just can’t condone the killing of an innocent and vulnerable human who has done nothing wrong because their mother doesn’t want them.

 

[GodLovesCats]

What about the opposite, where a fetus is expected to die in utero. even if the mother is OK?

 

[SPF]

What about the opposite, where a fetus is expected to die in utero. even if the mother is OK?

I would think each situation is unique and I would more than likely defer to the doctor. If there was hope I would probably pray with my wife and encourage her to wait and see if her health wasn’t in jeopardy. But it would certainly be situational.

These instances are exceedingly rare, which is why I tend to focus on the 98.5% of abortions which are performed for convenience reasons as that is pretty clear cut in my opinion.

 

[LostMarbels]

I often hear this argument about rape, and I always wonder if you care about my views. How do I feel about it? How do you internalise that you were not wanted, so much so, you were almost killed before even being born? Just discarded as a nuisance.

This is the problem with the abortion argument. People like myself are not considered. Neither are fetuses that were aborted, that decided to live anyways.

The Abortion Survivors Network

Now, I was not aborted, thankfully my 'mom' didn't go through with it. But why don't you ask me if I wanted to live? I was conceived by a rape... why don't you ask me if that mattered to me or not considering whether I lived or died? I was adopted by a very loving couple that were barren, and could not have children. This complete disregard of human life for convince is disturbing to say the least.


*The following is a REPOST*

That is a short paraphrased version, but the point I'm trying to convey is: As an adopted child, born from a rape, I cannot tell you how thankful I am for my life. I know all too well I could have been killed in the womb, and thrown in the trash. I am so thankful to my God for a 'mother' that respected life enough to understand it was not my fault, and allowed me to live.

I had no say at all in this event.

My life was in others hands before I was even aware I was in trouble.

That, disturbs me to this day. Knowing how easily my life could have been ended. I have have a daughter, that would not have existed had I been aborted. She is a beautiful vibrant person full of life. At the time of her mother's pregnancy, I was in highschool, (19) and my daughter was an 'accident' after a one night fling at a party. After being approached by my girlfriend, and asked if we should keep it; I adamantly demanded her to not "kill my child, and my mother's grand baby". Now one day I may have Grandchildren. None of which would be possible had I myself, or my daughter been aborted.

This 'accident' is now going to college to continue working with disabled children. She has been a camp counselor for YMCA, working with handicapped, and mentally disabled children since 8th grade. I cannot tell you how many lives she has touched. On and on I could go.... but I cannot shake what would not have happened had we not been allowed to live.

 

[SPF]

I often hear this argument about rape, and I always wonder if you care about my views. How do I feel about it? How do you internalise that you were not wanted, so much so, you were almost killed before even being born? Just discarded as a nuisance.

This is the problem with the abortion argument. People like myself are not considered. Neither are fetuses that were aborted, that decided to live anyways.

View attachment 256632

The Abortion Survivors Network

Now, I was not aborted, thankfully my 'mom' didn't go through with it. But why don't you ask me if I wanted to live? I was conceived by a rape... why don't you ask me if that mattered to me or not considering whether I lived or died? I was adopted by a very loving couple that were barren, and could not have children. This complete disregard of human life for convince is disturbing to say the least.


*The following is a REPOST*

That is a short paraphrased version, but the point I'm trying to convey is: As an adopted child, born from a rape, I cannot tell you how thankful I am for my life. I know all too well I could have been killed in the womb, and thrown in the trash. I am so thankful to my God for a 'mother' that respected life enough to understand it was not my fault, and allowed me to live.

I had no say at all in this event.

My life was in others hands before I was even aware I was in trouble.

That, disturbs me to this day. Knowing how easily my life could have been ended. I have have a daughter, that would not have existed had I been aborted. She is a beautiful vibrant person full of life. At the time of her mother's pregnancy, I was in highschool, (19) and my daughter was an 'accident' after a one night fling at a party. After being approached by my girlfriend, and asked if we should keep it; I adamantly demanded her to not "kill my child, and my mother's grand baby". Now one day I may have Grandchildren. None of which would be possible had I myself, or my daughter been aborted.

This 'accident' is now going to college to continue working with disabled children. She has been a camp counselor for YMCA, working with handicapped, and mentally disabled children since 8th grade. I cannot tell you how many lives she has touched. On and on I could go.... but I cannot shake what would not have happened had we not been allowed to live.

Thank you LostMarbles, that was a great post. I have always said that the morality of abortion stands or falls with how we understand the nature of the life of the unborn. It has nothing at all to do with how the child was born.

The issue, at the end of the day, is very simple. If we believe that the unborn are morally valuable human beings, then the vast majority of all abortions are immoral and a great travesty is occurring that people have rationalized away by convincing themselves that the unborn are somehow less human and not morally valuable.

 

[LostMarbels]

Thank you LostMarbles, that was a great post. I have always said that the morality of abortion stands or falls with how we understand the nature of the life of the unborn. It has nothing at all to do with how the child was born.

Honestly, I am not someone special, but thanks. Many people who were conceived by a rape are too ashamed or embarrassed to even talk about it. I just dont think people understand how hurtful this can be to some people. Now, Im fine. I dealt with it years ago, and I use my testimony. My adoptive family is my family, and I have never even sought my biological family out. I just don't want to know. I am appreciative I was allowed to live, and that's about as far as I go in relation to my biological mother.

The issue, at the end of the day, is very simple. If we believe that the unborn are morally valuable human beings, then the vast majority of all abortions are immoral and a great travesty is occurring that people have rationalized away by convincing themselves that the unborn are somehow less human and not morally valuable.

This is what has always gotten to me. What do people think I was in the womb? Was I no longer a child because I was conceived in unwanted circumstances? Honestly I get spoken about like I was some sort of rape monster; a punishment. Then you have the people that want to argue that the clump of cells in the womb is nothing. Well then... how am I here? What magical process makes me human, unhuman, viable, or refuse?

 

[SPF]

Honestly, I am not someone special, but thanks. Many people who were conceived by a rape are too ashamed or embarrassed to even talk about it. I just dont think people understand how hurtful this can be to some people. Now, Im fine. I dealt with it years ago, and I use my testimony. My adoptive family is my family, and I have never even sought my biological family out. I just don't want to know. I am appreciative I was allowed to live, and that's about as far as I go in relation to my biological mother.



This is what has always gotten to me. What do people think I was in the womb? Was I no longer a child because I was conceived in unwanted circumstances? Honestly I get spoken about like I was some sort of rape monster; a punishment. Then you have the people that want to argue that the clump of cells in the womb is nothing. Well then... how am I here? What magical process makes me human, unhuman, viable, or refuse?

Thank you again for your words. It's not going unnoticed that the pro-choice group has gone silent in the wake of your comments.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Thank you again for your words. It's not going unnoticed that the pro-choice group has gone silent in the wake of your comments.

Huh? The pro-choice group on this forum has not been silent in your thread about Alabama's new law.

 

[SPF]

Huh? The pro-choice group on this forum has not been silent in your thread about Alabama's new law.

I was obviously referring to this specific thread. Everyone ran away to the other threads after his powerful, thoughtful, and observant comments.

For instance, you think abortion for rape is perfectly acceptable. What do you say to LostMarbels who said: "This is what has always gotten to me. What do people think I was in the womb? Was I no longer a child because I was conceived in unwanted circumstances? Honestly I get spoken about like I was some sort of rape monster; a punishment. Then you have the people that want to argue that the clump of cells in the womb is nothing. Well then... how am I here? What magical process makes me human, unhuman, viable, or refuse?"

 

[GodLovesCats]

I do not believe Lost was any less of a child than me because of how conception occured. The tiny "clump of cells" definitely is human. It can't be nothing. I still think pro-lifers struggle to accept the fact that girls who are raped have logical reasons to want abortions, whether an abortion is right or wrong. Logical isn't the same as "she should do it."

 

[SPF]

I do not believe Lost was any less of a child than me because of how conception occured. The tiny "clump of cells" definitely is human. It can't be nothing. I still think pro-lifers struggle to accept the fact that girls who are raped have logical reasons to want abortions, whether an abortion is right or wrong. Logical isn't the same as "she should do it."

I agree with everything you just said. The problem is you've indicated that your position is that abortions are perfectly acceptable and not morally wrong in the case of rape.

And unfortunately, as horrible as rape is, it's not consistent to assert that abortions in non-rape cases are immoral but in rape cases they are acceptable. The reason it is not consistent is because the morality of abortion is based upon the nature of the human being inside the womb, not the how in which they came to exist.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Remember I also believe if the mother must choose between her own life and the baby's life, it would not be acceptable for the government to make that choice for her.

 

[SPF]

Remember I also believe if the mother must choose between her own life and the baby's life, it would not be acceptable for the government to make that choice for her.

....which has utterly nothing at all to do with what I said in reply #156.

 

[LostMarbels]

Remember I also believe if the mother must choose between her own life and the baby's life, it would not be acceptable for the government to make that choice for her.

This is a differnt, and rather tragic event entirely. A father could face this same dilemma in an emergency situation where there is only time to save one or none. Do you save your own life? Or that of your child?

Let's add some of that 'equality' I hear about to the equation.

However, in a non-life threatening situation the choice for an abortion comes down to convenience, and what the mother wants. There is no regard as to the welfare of the child at all. It is a completely egocentric decision. The term 'egocentric' is a concept that originated within Piaget's theory of childhood development. Egocentrism refers to someone's inability to understand that another person's view or opinion may be different than their own. Being that, the child may want to live, even tho the mother does not want the child.

I still think pro-lifers struggle to accept the fact that girls who are raped have logical reasons to want abortions, whether an abortion is right or wrong. Logical isn't the same as "she should do it."

Quite personally, I believe it would be far more 'logical' to provide the mother with aid to carry the child to birth, and put them up for adoption, rather than killing the child. Including federal, or state aid. I am willing to pay taxes to help a rape victim carry a baby full term to be adopted. There are also means such as adjudicated restitution, liens, and asset forfeiture that can come into play considering the guilty party. We already have child support payments, Wic, Food stamps, and other programs. These programs could also be well utilised aiding rape victims in rearing a child. Meaning those who choose to keep them. I agree simple child support payments would not be enough, but such a child should have protections and/or aid until 18 in my point of veiw. However, I do not want to give a single penny to abortions.

 

[GodLovesCats]

You are not thinking about what is more logical to the mother, based on her physical and mental state. In her mind, does it make any sense to just think, "Go to term and have the baby adopted," when she really is unable to get the necessary help to make that possible? Thinking logically is thinking about the mother.